Send the 144s to Cardiff
You're welcome to them. We're keeping the 3 car versions though
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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?
- Thread starter Andy Pacer
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You're welcome to them. We're keeping the 3 car versions though
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anamyd
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Yeah that's fine, there are 13 2-car 144s right...?You're welcome to them. We're keeping the 3 car versions though
Yeah that's fine, there are 13 2-car 144s right...?
That's correct.
anamyd
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When can we have them...? around the middle of the month...?
When can we have them...? around the middle of the month...?
Wait for the extra trains to spill over into Sheffield and I might consider it...
superkev
Established Member
May be of interest from meeting Northen v west yorks politicians.
"Operator Northern told a meeting of Yorkshire’s political leaders that it “had a robust plan” to replace them by the end if the year.
But, when pressed for assurances that the trains would all be out of service, a spokesperson for the operator admitted “alternative options” would need to be explored if problems occurred getting new vehicles onto the tracks."
Link https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...y-end-of-2019-but-stopped-short-of-guarantee/
K
"Operator Northern told a meeting of Yorkshire’s political leaders that it “had a robust plan” to replace them by the end if the year.
But, when pressed for assurances that the trains would all be out of service, a spokesperson for the operator admitted “alternative options” would need to be explored if problems occurred getting new vehicles onto the tracks."
Link https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...y-end-of-2019-but-stopped-short-of-guarantee/
K
anamyd
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cheers mate
Alternative options will be derogations for 153s and any sprinters not done on time. About 20 pacers will be redundant after the May timetable change when EMUs takeover Bolton services.
It honestly feels like people want the pacers to stay so they have something to moan about. Electrification is done, all but 2 cascaded units received, 195 training agreed and 769s being tested. There are 46 weeks to get them into service and if they fall short then pacers will be the last contingency measure not the first.
anamyd
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a 144 is 1 better than a 143.
61653 HTAFC
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144012 would be ideal as a medium-term solution for the Butetown branch even after 2020 I'd have thought.
anamyd
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That's a fair point! TfW should actually consider that!
Northern Fail is reporting 107 short formed services today. I’m not sure how many diagrams that is but quite a few. The short forming seemed to be getting better, now it seems to be worse again.
It’ll be very interesting to see what happens over the next few months. I’m still quite sceptical that we’ll see the back of the Pacers this year without causing severe unit shortages. As a regular peak time traveller Northern’s intention to advertise their new trains actually has me quite concerned...
LOL The Irony
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I've explained before how quickly short formed services can build up.
Northern Fail is reporting 107 short formed services today. I’m not sure how many diagrams that is but quite a few. The short forming seemed to be getting better, now it seems to be worse again.
It’ll be very interesting to see what happens over the next few months. I’m still quite sceptical that we’ll see the back of the Pacers this year without causing severe unit shortages. As a regular peak time traveller Northern’s intention to advertise their new trains actually has me quite concerned...
There's the new 195s due in May time hopefully, along with 156 cascades from ScotRail (admittedly these need some work as they still contain the old First livery and are quite outdated now) along with the ScotRail Saltire 158s.
The go live date for Bolton's electrification should free up a good amount of 156s too, along with the 769s.
I'd guess that 107 short forms are more than accounted for by units currently away for PRM Mods.
Another thing to consider is what type of units Northern would be short of if 195s do not enter service on time. They will be short of units to run Northern Connect services due to start in December, not local services. The cascaded units, electrification and 769s are the real pacer replacements. There could be some flexibility with 195s by moving sprinters around to free up 158s but that has its limits. Derogations for Northern and any spare 153s would help free up 150s, which in turn could free up some 158s. An obvious source of extra units to cover for 195s would be TPE 185s. It looks like 20 will probably go to Ireland between December and next February. Based on that deal going through and TPE franchise agreement, if TPE can cope with dropping down to 29 units at the December timetable change then Northern could lease or sub lease:
8th December - upto 10 units
5th January - 4 units
2nd February - 3 units
1st March onwards - 2 units
If the 185 Irish deal never happens then 22 X 185s are all the units necessary to cover for 195 delays.
Another option would be to copy TfW and loco haul short Mark IV sets for a handful of services.
Frankly the simplest option would be to get rid of the Pacers and design the December timetable on the number of 195s they know will be available when they have to submit draft timetables. With PRM mods done, derogations for Northerns 153s (+ another 10) and 323s, all 8 X 769s in service and EMUs through Bolton that would be enough to run a decent timetable without any of the Pacers, 195s or 331s. The PRM mods are hiding that Northern have already received 45 units, which are longer than pacers. The government has no need to grant pacer derogations and it won't take the political hit when there are other options for Northern.
It isn't a shortage of 319s that prevents more trains through Bolton becoming electric. Rather the diagrams that operate on the Preston-Buckshaw Parkway-Bolton-Manchester axis are heavily interworked with services that are on non-electrified lines. There's a reluctance to change diagrams in February when they're already due to be changed in May. Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly, the power supply to the line is inadequate to operate a full electric service until the "Great Extension Lead" feed from Heyrod to Manchester Victoria is commissioned.
Agreed. But I still think it’s worth mentioning unless we have another measure of Northern’s shortforming problems.
NorthernSpirit
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I'm more concerned over the availablity of seats as I have a funny feeling that these class 195 Civities will be a let down. I'd rather see some of the Pacer units retained for extra seating until more new builds are rolled into service even if it means locking the bog out of use (for the 142's screwing the door shut since it can't be locked from the outside) and advertising their service (as Southern do with their 313's) "no toilets available on this service".
I'd go as far as saying Northern should do a GWR and reform any Sprinter that they have into three or even four car hybrids just to create much longer units with extra seating since the 153's won't be permitted to be used other than as a luggage van.
anamyd
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The toilet being locked out of use is only to avoid installing an accessible toilet (and I believe a CET). The many other PRM modifications (position of door controls, door obstruction detection mechanisms, door openable / closing sounders, 2020-compliant wheelchair space, internal and external electronic displays and automated announcements) would all still have to be carried out to be 2020-compliant.
Forum rules compliant legend:
Controlled Emission Toilet
Persons with Reduced Mobility
I’m sure that’d go down well on the last train home. Maybe the guard should be issued with a mop...
LOL The Irony
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Well Northern are still insistant that a pacer won't be on their patch come the 1st of January.
xotGD
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The lead story on Look North (Yorkshire version) was speculation that they might not all be gone by year end. The reporter even got to bash a Pacer.
Why does the fall back *have* to be retaining pacers?! This is what I don't understand about the regular comments on this forum that pacers won't go. There replacements are electrification, cascaded units and 769s, not 195s which are for Northern Connect services. 153s are closer to compliance than pacers and could be granted derogations for use attached to compliant units. Mark IIIs are an option for longer services, again they are less toxic politically. Mark IVs are already compliant and TfW will be using them with 67s (there are plenty of them free). 185s are another option. Basically any diesel powered units are more suited to the services that 195s will run than pacers.
Media reports are rarely accurate for rail news. They are trying to get a headline not tell the truth.
Smart money would be to keep any spare mk4s in decent condition just right for a struggling TOC when it can't send out units that haven't been modded. Add a seriously underutilised loco like a 67 and you're good to go. Especially if your TOC already has some potential knowledge of said loco or stock or working on similar stock beforehand.
Not sure if this is the full report you saw on TV, but this was posted on the BBC Yorkshire Facebook page:
Nah, the government will just grant derogations to pacers because they don't care about votes.... I think there are 18 class 67 locos unused. Derogations for 153s (plus another 10 that will be off lease), short term derogations for any units not modded in time, any spare 185s and loco hauled sets. A significant number of the 61 x 195s have never been due to arrive by the end of this year. Any delay in 331 delivery can be resolved by granting derogations for EMUs. I think people have got fixated on 100 pacers and 100 new units.
So basically one member of the public says that Northern contradicted all of its previous statements. The phrase "there is nout so happy as an unhappy Yorkshireman" springs to mind. I am not fond of British grumbling, when it is irrational and blind its just utterly pathetic. When pacers do go people will just moan about sprinters instead.
A two carriage 195 will be 48 metres while a two carriage Pacer is only 30 metres. I know some have raised concerns about the amount of 2 car 195 units Northern have ordered but the car length is substantially larger.
The problem with Northern's stock is there are too many seats and not enough standing space. In the morning peak is what kills them. The cramped Pacers, 150s, 319s are not well equipped to deal with this problem. The Pacers are inherently dangerous for standing passengers with steps near the pivot doors and a bumpy ride which can knock you off your feet with a big enough jolt.
For a 10-15 minute journey I don't mind standing up at peak times. The 195s and 331s have clearly been designed to be more generous standing space around the doors similar to the 185s.
Also, I'm not convinced the DfT will grant derogations for Pacers etc as it will give the TOCs and leasing companies an opportunity to kick the issue into the long grass.
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