Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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47802

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Personally I'd be happy for them to keep a 142 back in order to strengthen Whitby runs on summer Saturdays. Better than trying to crowd everyone in a 156.

My fear is that with all these new trains, such services will still be left without any passenger capacity increase.
Well that's just tough, the franchise agreement and government commitment says they are going lets just leave at that and get rid of them.
 

aformeruser

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Well that's just tough, the franchise agreement and government commitment says they are going lets just leave at that and get rid of them.
The law also requires them to be modified at a considerable expense or withdrawn by the end of 2019.
 

yorksrob

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Well that's just tough, the franchise agreement and government commitment says they are going lets just leave at that and get rid of them.
Then they need to come up with some other more imaginative way of relieving capacity on the line then.
 

47802

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Then they need to come up with some other more imaginative way of relieving capacity on the line then.
Well once all the new trains and cascades are in place you would hope that they would be able to double up 156's on any grossly overcrowded services, but at the end of the day Northern's improvements in capacity aren't going to cover every eventuality, there's clearly a balance to be struck between cost and capacity on what is a highly subsidised franchise, although I expect in your world you would just have a bottomless pit of money to throw at the Railway.
 

aformeruser

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But if they were used to strengthen services on which a compliant unit was already provided ... ?
Still not legal. Remember wheelchair users are one small part of PRM requirements, how are going to ensure a person who is deaf or hard of hearing travels on the unit with visual PIS? Or the elderly person with two walking sticks (and who can't use the Pacer toilet) boards the unit with the accessible toilet?
 

yorksrob

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Well once all the new trains and cascades are in place you would hope that they would be able to double up 156's on any grossly overcrowded services, but at the end of the day Northern's improvements in capacity aren't going to cover every eventuality, there's clearly a balance to be struck between cost and capacity on what is a highly subsidised franchise, although I expect in your world you would just have a bottomless pit of money to throw at the Railway.
One would hope. But in my experience it's hit and miss whether Whitby is doubled up now, and I know that on some occasions there's a 142 spare in the area on Saturdays.
 

Bikeman78

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Still not legal. Remember wheelchair users are one small part of PRM requirements, how are going to ensure a person who is deaf or hard of hearing travels on the unit with visual PIS? Or the elderly person with two walking sticks (and who can't use the Pacer toilet) boards the unit with the accessible toilet?
It would be a brave person that puts all their faith in the automatic displays. This week I travelled on a 156 that was one stop behind from Croy to Glasgow. One of the pairs of 365s didn't have a clue what it was doing until it got to Falkirk. As for the door release chime, on some units it's painfully loud. Units such as the 377s or the S stock are fine but recent conversions like the 150s and 156s are ridiculous.
 

Cardiff123

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According to the Northern Pacer withdrawal timetable, Northern are due to release 10 x 144s next Saturday (15th Sept) as they go off-lease. Is this still happening?
 

js1000

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According to the Northern Pacer withdrawal timetable, Northern are due to release 10 x 144s next Saturday (15th Sept) as they go off-lease. Is this still happening?
I highly doubt they'll stick to that schedule - providing they are all gone by the end of 2019 that is all that matters.

They can only release the Pacers after it is "reasonably regarded as replacing it" as stated in the franchise agreement. The eleven 769s have not entered service as they were supposed to in May. Northern have ten 170s in service since July but are still waiting on six more.

We'll have to wait until December when some 195s and 331s are introduced before the overdue purge begins!
 

61653 HTAFC

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There does seem to have been more "spare" units (i.e. any) at Huddersfield during the week lately, along with longer formations along the Calder Valley. Still overcrowding elsewhere though!
 

Chester1

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According to the Northern Pacer withdrawal timetable, Northern are due to release 10 x 144s next Saturday (15th Sept) as they go off-lease. Is this still happening?
It was due to be 5 x 2 coach 144s on 15th September, 2 in October, 4 in November and last 2 on 5th November. 5 x 142s in October and 19 in November. The 3 coach 144s by end of March and the remaining 142s in monthly batches until October 2019. None of the withdrawals can start until Manchester to Preston is wired and can't be completed until the 769s or an alternative arrives. Northern could the quickly catch up with 35-40 pacers could going off lease shortly after EMUs takeover Manchester-Preston services.
 

_toommm_

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It was due to be 5 x 2 coach 144s on 15th September, 2 in October, 4 in November and last 2 on 5th November. 5 x 142s in October and 19 in November. The 3 coach 144s by end of March and the remaining 142s in monthly batches until October 2019. None of the withdrawals can start until Manchester to Preston is wired and can't be completed until the 769s or an alternative arrives. Northern could the quickly catch up with 35-40 pacers could going off lease shortly after EMUs takeover Manchester-Preston services.
You've got to remember that the 144s are the bread and butter of local services in South Yorkshire, and so far, there isn't really a replacement never mind anything over in Lancashire. A 3 car 144 is bad at the best of times on a peak time Sheff to Huddersfield or Sheff to Leeds.
 

Chester1

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You've got to remember that the 144s are the bread and butter of local services in South Yorkshire, and so far, there isn't really a replacement never mind anything over in Lancashire. A 3 car 144 is bad at the best of times on a peak time Sheff to Huddersfield or Sheff to Leeds.
I quoted the public plan, it will be delayed by rolling stock and electrification delays but only for the length of time they are delayed. Once Manchester-Preston is switched on there will be surplus DMUs in the North West and some will be cascaded. At a very rough estimate the switch on will free up 16-20 DMUs and 769s about the same again. As other posters have pointed out there are other units due to be cascaded to Northern.
 

61653 HTAFC

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You've got to remember that the 144s are the bread and butter of local services in South Yorkshire, and so far, there isn't really a replacement never mind anything over in Lancashire. A 3 car 144 is bad at the best of times on a peak time Sheff to Huddersfield or Sheff to Leeds.
A 3-car 144 is also the best to be had on Hudds to Sheff, as nothing bigger will fit many platforms until they get extended: particularly P2 at HUD. The plan is that 150s freed up (directly or indirectly) by the Bolton wires will replace Pacers on both sides of the Pennines...

Eventually.
 

leo knight

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They are booked for a 150 now, owing to some services skipping stops so they can take advantage of the higher 'SP' speed limits.
There appears to be more 156 workings in the Newcastle area not sure if some allerton 156s have been transfered to Heaton.
 

_toommm_

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I hope they stay for 5 more years.

Realistically they will be around for at least another 3. A climbdown is imminent
I doubt three as I highly doubt there will be any sort of derogation for them to run on their own, and for them to run coupled to a compliant-unit defeats the object of them still being used really.
 

61653 HTAFC

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They are booked for a 150 now, owing to some services skipping stops so they can take advantage of the higher 'SP' speed limits.
But ALL of Northern's current diesel fleet can use SP speeds, can't they? Can Pacers not*? If so I'm shocked that such knowledge has evaded me for so long!

*= by which I mean, are they not permitted to? If they simply "don't have the legs" that's another matter!
 

superkev

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I can't see them staying long as I hear Northern have just about run out of siding space with all the latest hand me downs. I've lost track but they must have aquired well over 40 dmus of 153, 150, 156, 158 and 170.
K
 

507021

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I can't see them staying long as I hear Northern have just about run out of siding space with all the latest hand me downs. I've lost track but they must have aquired well over 40 dmus of 153, 150, 156, 158 and 170.
K
In terms of DMUs, fifteen* 150s, five 153s, two 158s and ten 170s have transferred to Northern so far, so 32 units in total. The additional 156s haven't arrived yet, and on top of those, there are also another five 150s, six 158s and six 170s due to transfer too.

* - Technically, it's sixteen if you include 150209, but the net gain of 150s is fifteen.
 

_toommm_

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But ALL of Northern's current diesel fleet can use SP speeds, can't they? Can Pacers not*? If so I'm shocked that such knowledge has evaded me for so long!

*= by which I mean, are they not permitted to? If they simply "don't have the legs" that's another matter!
MU speeds I believe so (again, whether they can or can't reach that speed is another matter), but SP speed limits are just Sprinters and above - 165/166/170/171/172.

See this thread from a while ago - Post Six:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/speed-limit-sp.21771/
 

simon7929

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In terms of DMUs, fifteen* 150s, five 153s, two 158s and ten 170s have transferred to Northern so far, so 32 units in total. The additional 156s haven't arrived yet, and on top of those, there are also another five 150s, six 158s and six 170s due to transfer too.

* - Technically, it's sixteen if you include 150209, but the net gain of 150s is fifteen.
It was due to be 5 x 2 coach 144s on 15th September, 2 in October, 4 in November and last 2 on 5th November. 5 x 142s in October and 19 in November. The 3 coach 144s by end of March and the remaining 142s in monthly batches until October 2019. None of the withdrawals can start until Manchester to Preston is wired and can't be completed until the 769s or an alternative arrives. Northern could the quickly catch up with 35-40 pacers could going off lease shortly after EMUs takeover Manchester-Preston services.
The 170s are 3 coaches long so in reality on a like for like direct replacement basis then you are gaining an extra coach.
 

xotGD

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There appears to be more 156 workings in the Newcastle area not sure if some allerton 156s have been transfered to Heaton.
There were certainly more 156s through Middlesbrough when I was there on Thursday compared to the previous norm.
 

PomWombat

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The 170s are 3 coaches long so in reality on a like for like direct replacement basis then you are gaining an extra coach.
The 170's coaches are longer too, so a 3-coach 170 can carry roughly the same number of people as 4 coaches of pacer units. With the advantage that they can't get short-formed.
 
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I have it on good authority that withdrawal of the 2-car 144s will now commence in early 2019, and that some will head to Wales to help cover during PRM modifications.
 

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