Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd rather sit on a Pacer than stand on something newer ...

I'd rather stand on a Pacer than sit on a Pacer...

 

[Chester1]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...passengers-disruption-will-continue-until-may

Surely with a ''Horrendous' shortage of diesel trains at Northern, surely withdrawing Pacers should be left til the last possible moment now, with even maybe a request to extend the deadline? Surely this is common sense?

That article states Northern has given away too many diesel units. I don't think a single unit has left, which should indicate the level of accuracy in the rest of the article. Its certainly not common sense to extend the deadline past the end of 2019 because of delays in early 2019. Unless you are you suggesting that Manchester-Preston won't be wired or that the 195s and 769s will not be in service by the end of next year?

 

[Bertie the bus]

You're right - they haven't returned any units. That "spokesman" is obviously just an office junior or a spotter - though I wouldn't put it past Northern to use either of those as a spokesman. No professional would come out with:

If Network Rail had stuck to their timetable, we would be running many more nice shiny electric trains by now.

 

[Coolzac]

That article states Northern has given away too many diesel units. I don't think a single unit has left, which should indicate the level of accuracy in the rest of the article. Its certainly not common sense to extend the deadline past the end of 2019 because of delays in early 2019. Unless you are you suggesting that Manchester-Preston won't be wired or that the 195s and 769s will not be in service by the end of next year?

I am not suggesting this- it just seems premature to be retiring rolling stock at a time when there are major shortages! If they have enough rolling stock by the end of 2019 then great. But if they don't, I hope they grant Pacers an extension rather than cancel and short form trains. Not an unreasonable position, surely?

 

[Chester1]

I am not suggesting this- it just seems premature to be retiring rolling stock at a time when there are major shortages! If they have enough rolling stock by the end of 2019 then great. But if they don't, I hope they grant Pacers an extension rather than cancel and short form trains. Not an unreasonable position, surely?

Completing Manchester-Preston electrification and the 195s and 769s entering service are the only things necessary to send every single Northern pacer off lease. As soon one happens they can start going off lease. As I posted earlier in the thread there will be a DMU shortage indefinitely because the policy of phasing out diesel power, which has nearly killed off the business case for new build DMUs. The electrification is finally close to completion and 195s are being tested, unless something goes very badly wrong there is no need to even consider keeping pacers past the end of next year. The political and legal issues are a big obstacle too. Its just not going to happen in the North, maybe in South Wales though.

 

[MCSHF007]

That article states Northern has given away too many diesel units. I don't think a single unit has left, which should indicate the level of accuracy in the rest of the article. Its certainly not common sense to extend the deadline past the end of 2019 because of delays in early 2019. Unless you are you suggesting that Manchester-Preston won't be wired or that the 195s and 769s will not be in service by the end of next year?

Isn't the 'professional journalist' responsible for this article the same lady who has been very publicly inciting Northern passengers to refuse to pay the increased fares from January? Dopey *** if so.

 

[mde]

Isn't the 'professional journalist' responsible for this article the same lady who has been very publicly inciting Northern passengers to refuse to pay the increased fares from January? Dopey *** if so.

Yes, it's Helen Pidd. But, I don't think calling her names is very pleasant.

It seems that she had some difficulty getting hold of their press officer, so, this might have contributed to the quality of the eventual statement.

 

[Starmill]

The electrification is finally close to completion and 195s are being tested, unless something goes very badly wrong there is no need to even consider keeping pacers past the end of next year.

Tested, sure. But driver training??

 

[Red Devil]

Tested, sure. But driver training??

Not even started yet!!

 

[yorksrob]

That article states Northern has given away too many diesel units. I don't think a single unit has left, which should indicate the level of accuracy in the rest of the article. Its certainly not common sense to extend the deadline past the end of 2019 because of delays in early 2019. Unless you are you suggesting that Manchester-Preston won't be wired or that the 195s and 769s will not be in service by the end of next year?

Well, that would be just fine and dandy, if after all the rolling stock shuffles, electrifications and new units, we're still left without enough carriages to run the service. This was always the worry when arbitrary withdrawal deadlines are introduced.

Hanging onto the 153's as a contingency should be Northerns first move, however rolling stock leasing structures probably mitigate against this.

 

[Mogster]

I agree the Pacers have to go. However as a regular traveller my concern is that once the 142s have gone Northern will start trumpeting the arrival of their new trains into service. I’m certain there’s plenty of unfulfilled demand and we’ll see a further large increase in passenger numbers. We’ve seen in London how improving the service can lead to incredible passenger growth, more than 100% on some London services, I suspect the same will happen further North.

Travelling from the West into Manchester most mornings the 4 car services are already full and need 6 cars. Same goes for peak services heading East in the evening. The infrastructure isn’t there to run more trains through central Manchester so longer trains are the only answer, maxed to available platform space. I just think that without extra capacity Northern are going to be in world of overcrowding pain in a couple of years, far worse than currently.

 

[pemma]

142026 missing seats today on Teeside Airport Train, looks like a couple of yobs have took them.

Is that one of the ones with original bus seats? If not it's likely the seats have broken (not necessarily through vandalism, it might be through wear and tear) and there aren't any replacements available so they have been removed but not replaced. A number of the 142s with bus seats have been like that for a few years.

 

[pemma]

That article states Northern has given away too many diesel units. I don't think a single unit has left, which should indicate the level of accuracy in the rest of the article. Its certainly not common sense to extend the deadline past the end of 2019 because of delays in early 2019. Unless you are you suggesting that Manchester-Preston won't be wired or that the 195s and 769s will not be in service by the end of next year?

Depends exactly what is meant.
- Northern have released a 150 to GWR in exchange for the two mismatched vehicles (they weren't supposed to send a unit in the opposite direction when they got the mismatched vehicles.)
- Northern have loaned a pair of 150/2s to ATW on a few occasions throughout the year.
- Northern have returned loaned 185s to TPE.

Then there's what happened under the last franchise with the TPE 170s going and Northern 156s being used as replacements and Northern losing 156s to EMT, even though they did get 150s in lieu and again they lost the 3 x 180s even though they got 6 x 150s in lieu.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is preposterous to suggest hiring a couple of units to ATW on a Northern strike day is causing ongoing issues with short-formed services. Bringing up the Class 180s is just as ludicrous when the article specifically states Northern claim the issue is due to delayed electrification. I don't think electrification had even started when Northern had the 180s.

 

[Chester1]

I agree the Pacers have to go. However as a regular traveller my concern is that once the 142s have gone Northern will start trumpeting the arrival of their new trains into service. I’m certain there’s plenty of unfulfilled demand and we’ll see a further large increase in passenger numbers. We’ve seen in London how improving the service can lead to incredible passenger growth, more than 100% on some London services, I suspect the same will happen further North.

Travelling from the West into Manchester most mornings the 4 car services are already full and need 6 cars. Same goes for peak services heading East in the evening. The infrastructure isn’t there to run more trains through central Manchester so longer trains are the only answer, maxed to available platform space. I just think that without extra capacity Northern are going to be in world of overcrowding pain in a couple of years, far worse than currently.

Don't forget the difference in capacity between the new stock and pacers. There is also the option of holding onto or even obtaining more 323s which would resolve capacity issues on any electrified route. 185s leases start to end from end of next year, TPE may exercise options to keep all or some longer because of delays receiving new stock but they won't need all. Pacers are not needed after the end of next year. Once electrification is done or new stock enters service then some pacers can go off lease, once both happen all can go off lease. Despite the delays it still extremely likely that both will happen next year.

 

[yorksrob]

Is that one of the ones with original bus seats? If not it's likely the seats have broken (not necessarily through vandalism, it might be through wear and tear) and there aren't any replacements available so they have been removed but not replaced. A number of the 142s with bus seats have been like that for a few years.

You'd have thought they could buy an old bus to cannibalise.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is that one of the ones with original bus seats?

No, it's one of the units that was refurbished by Northern Spirit with individual high-backed seating, so your broken seats hypothesis seems most likely.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You'd have thought they could buy an old bus to cannibalise.

It's been quite some time since any buses were built with classic "bus bench" type seating... any survivors are probably in the hands of preservationists!

 

[pemma]

It's been quite some time since any buses were built with classic "bus bench" type seating... any survivors are probably in the hands of preservationists!

Plus there were very few 3 seaters on buses. I seem to recall some Leyland deckers having a 3 seater at the very front of the top deck, around 3 single seaters near the stairs and then everything else was a 2 seater, except the back seats - were they 5 seaters or a 2 seater and a 3 seater together?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Plus there were very few 3 seaters on buses. I seem to recall some Leyland deckers having a 3 seater at the very front of the top deck, around 3 single seaters near the stairs and then everything else was a 2 seater, except the back seats - were they 5 seaters or a 2 seater and a 3 seater together?

It varied... I seem to remember the back seats often being two 2s with a single in between!

 

[yorksrob]

You'd have thought they could buy an old bus to cannibalise.

I'm sure there used to be some in service in Leeds with "bus seats" in around the early noughties. Perhaps there's one left in a depot for driver training somewhere.

 

[pemma]

I'm sure there used to be some in service in Leeds with "bus seats" in around the early noughties. Perhaps there's one left in a depot for driver training somewhere.

First Huddersfield had some L reg buses with traditional bus seats in the noughties but by around 2006 they were mostly all replaced with newer buses with a newer style of seating. They also had one bus which had 4 sets of traditional bus seats on the top deck and the rest a horrible yellow plastic thing that I think was only fitted to one bus, so presumably some yellow plastic seats broke and they didn't have any more of the same to replace them. I think Yorkshire Traction and then Stagecoach Yorkshire had buses with traditional bus seats for longer but I think it's still quite a while since they were used.

 

[yorksrob]

Funnily enough, I saw a bus travelling through Leeds today with old style seats. It looked as though it was owned by a private company, rather than "heritage".

 

[Starmill]

Not even started yet!!

So when they customers are told by the company that they put all available carriages into service at peak times... true but only to the point that they have drivers trained to use them. It's absolutely no use having large amounts of replacement stock sat on Edge Hill if you don't have a driver training plan.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It's been quite some time since any buses were built with classic "bus bench" type seating... any survivors are probably in the hands of preservationists!

... or lurking in the depths of PVS Barnsley!

First Huddersfield had some L reg buses with traditional bus seats in the noughties but by around 2006 they were mostly all replaced with newer buses with a newer style of seating. They also had one bus which had 4 sets of traditional bus seats on the top deck and the rest a horrible yellow plastic thing that I think was only fitted to one bus, so presumably some yellow plastic seats broke and they didn't have any more of the same to replace them. I think Yorkshire Traction and then Stagecoach Yorkshire had buses with traditional bus seats for longer but I think it's still quite a while since they were used.

L888??? I remember those, there were only eight as some Chinese investors bought them. As for spare parts, there's nowt wrong at doing some temporary repairs to the Pacer seats to make them last a bit longer or alternatively the withdrawn Pacers could be used to salvage spare parts to keep the others going for that bit longer.

 

[pemma]

L888??? I remember those, there were only eight as some Chinese investors bought them. As for spare parts, there's nowt wrong at doing some temporary repairs to the Pacer seats to make them last a bit longer or alternatively the withdrawn Pacers could be used to salvage spare parts to keep the others going for that bit longer.

Yes I think it was L888 TTT that had some strange yellow plastic seats, which were the right shape but the wrong materials and L888 YTT had some hard grey and green seats which weren't the right shape but made from the right materials. (Or it might have been the other way around.) There were also some buses with normal L reg registrations which had traditional bus seats which I think were blue.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Haven't Northern had an influx of 153/156/158/170, with more to come?
That should do something for short-forming, even if new services are not started.
There still seemed to be plenty of Pacers around today, including on Alderley Edge services which seems a complete travesty.
The notion of "more 323s on Chat Moss services" didn't seem to apply - everything I saw today (Liverpool-Manchester-Crewe) was a 319.
There was a 323 parked up in the bay platform at Stockport, and one on the Stoke service.
On the other hand life on the Castlefield corridor seemed pretty much on time around mid-day, even TPE from Yorkshire/Scotland.

 

[Starmill]

something

At 1848 tonight there are 16 Norhtern services short formed, so...

 

[Starmill]

There still seemed to be plenty of Pacers around today, including on Alderley Edge services which seems a complete travesty.

Agreed. The response to the shortage of DMUs (and indeed electro-diesels) was to convert EMU diagrams to DMU ones on Alderley Edge - Manchester just so they could run through to Wigan.
I am not aware of any reduction in pacer work having yet taken place - unless anyone can correct me on that?

 

[pemma]

Agreed. The response to the shortage of DMUs (and indeed electro-diesels) was to convert EMU diagrams to DMU ones on Alderley Edge - Manchester just so they could run through to Wigan.
I am not aware of any reduction in pacer work having yet taken place - unless anyone can correct me on that?

Porterbrook did tell Northern they would have the 769s in time to introduce by May, then in time to introduce by Sep. The latter apparently being why Alderley Edge to Wigan went ahead while Macclesfield to Blackpool didn't.