Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[northernchris]

Sheffield only gets a couple of 4 car trains to deal with out of Manchester rush hour demand and they stay together for the rest of the evening, despite running virtually empty.

IIRC, the 4 car peak Sheffield's work the Rose Hill off peak, with the 2 cars on the off peak Sheffield's going on to peak Rose Hill's

 

[Mogster]

For the past few years, many Atherton line services have been formed of four carriages as has Wigan to Alderley Edge and Wigan to Stalybridge. Since the massive 142 withdrawals last month, most are now just a single unit. I eagerly await the 769s.

Yes. 6 out of 8 of my Alderley Edge - Southport services were 2 car last week.

A couple of months ago Pacers were very prevalent, now they’ve gone to be replaced with nothing as was the concern.

 

[Mat17]

IIRC, the 4 car peak Sheffield's work the Rose Hill off peak, with the 2 cars on the off peak Sheffield's going on to peak Rose Hill's

So if I was to go to Manchester on a Saturday, would I have any chance of a 142 set turning up on a Rose Hill service, or would I have to go on a weekday?

I'm afraid timings and service patterns have changed on this route since I was a regular on it back in 2002-3 (so I'm not sure what runs where and when). Though, it would be very fitting to wave off the 142s on the old 101 haunt.

 

[northernchris]

So if I was to go to Manchester on a Saturday, would I have any chance of a 142 set turning up on a Rose Hill service, or would I have to go on a weekday?

I'm afraid timings and service patterns have changed on this route since I was a regular on it back in 2002-3 (so I'm not sure what runs where and when). Though, it would be very fitting to wave off the 142s on the old 101 haunt.

Unfortunately I'm not sure if the Saturday diagrams are the same as weekdays, sorry

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes. 6 out of 8 of my Alderley Edge - Southport services were 2 car last week.

A couple of months ago Pacers were very prevalent, now they’ve gone to be replaced with nothing as was the concern.

Prior to Dec 15 there were 45-50 class 142 running around on weekdays. Since then there have been 10-15. Did Northern introduce 30-35 new trains over that weekend?

 

[IamTrainsYT]

on weekends or weekdays?
I saw numerous 2 car 150s on the Alderley Edge workings but on the Sheffield/Marple/Rose Hill they were nearly all 4s.

Weekdays

 

[superkev]

Prior to Dec 15 there were 45-50 class 142 running around on weekdays. Since then there have been 10-15. Did Northern introduce 30-35 new trains over that weekend?

That's question I've been asking around these forums for a while and theres also the 23 144s to go.
They have of course around 10 195s in store 4 training and 8 to be delivered (21) as well as the 769s if they ever enter service. Still looks very short (formed).
Didn't Northerns original traction plan allow for more electrification like Man to Stalybridge that was subsequently Graylinged (paused).
Anyone any spare stock?
K

 

[Chris217]

Maybe the question should be
How many shotforms are there today due to stock shortages whilst perfectly useable Pacers are being sent for scrap?

Funny though,one line that was usually a single Pacer. -The Kirkby branch seems to have doubled to a 4 car with regular 142+150 combos according to some pacer sightings on here.

 

[Staffordian]

That's question I've been asking around these forums for a while and theres also the 23 144s to go.
They have of course around 10 195s in store 4 training and 8 to be delivered (21) as well as the 769s if they ever enter service. Still looks very short (formed).
Didn't Northerns original traction plan allow for more electrification like Man to Stalybridge that was subsequently Graylinged (paused).
Anyone any spare stock?
K

There must also be a certain number of 150/156/158 being PRM’d at any one time (perhaps about 10), which would bring the total of ‘additional’ available units to replace remaining Pacers up to around 32.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Aren’t there 769s to come at some point?

 

[superkev]

There must also be a certain number of 150/156/158 being PRM’d at any one time (perhaps about 10), which would bring the total of ‘additional’ available units to replace remaining Pacers up to around 32.

Ther are around 7 dmus away at works at the moment. Of course even after all the PRM work is completed this will continue for quite some time as units return to works for the various further phases of Northerns interior refresh. 507021 excellent blog lists around 60 dmus which are so.
K

 

[IamTrainsYT]

Maybe the question should be
How many shotforms are there today due to stock shortages whilst perfectly useable Pacers are being sent for scrap?

Funny though,one line that was usually a single Pacer. -The Kirkby branch seems to have doubled to a 4 car with regular 142+150 combos according to some pacer sightings on here.

The northern fail app says a lot of short forms

 

[Mogster]

The northern fail app says a lot of short forms

If NF uses the same data as Journeycheck it’s really not that accurate. Most of my Southport - AE short forms last week didn’t appear on Journeycheck.

 

[timstours]

Interestingly, all of the units (Of classes 142 - 144) preserved outside of the NRM so far have been by lines quite geographically removed from their historic operating areas: Nottinghamshire, West Midlands, Wiltshire and Kent!

The KWVR would seem quite a fitting site to preserve a class 144, given that they were staple traction on Airedale services pre-electrification.

143s were regular on swindon -cheltenham stoppers via the golden valley for many years,so wilts is one of their old operating areas

 

[DannyMich2018]

Aren’t there 769s to come at some point?

hopefully soon, originally meant to start entering service in May 2018!!!!

 

[northernchris]

That's question I've been asking around these forums for a while and theres also the 23 144s to go.
They have of course around 10 195s in store 4 training and 8 to be delivered (21) as well as the 769s if they ever enter service. Still looks very short (formed).
Didn't Northerns original traction plan allow for more electrification like Man to Stalybridge that was subsequently Graylinged (paused).
Anyone any spare stock?
K

It may not be as bad as a first thought. As noted, there's around 22 195s to enter service and as far as I know there's only the remaining diagrams on Blackpool - York and Leeds - Nottingham / Lincoln to convert, which should mean there's at least 10 195s free which could be used on routes such as Oxford Road - Liverpool and Blackburn - Rochdale freeing up sprinters for elsewhere. There's still some 150s to arrive from GWR too, and once all units are PRM compliant it could lead to another 2-3 out on the network each day if the refurb work is slowed down.

I think the loss of the 153s could be problematic, there's some services where 2 carriages aren't enough but 4 would be too many and it's more likely these will end up 2 car operated in the future based on the overall fleet

 

[Killingworth]

I think the loss of the 153s could be problematic, there's some services where 2 carriages aren't enough but 4 would be too many and it's more likely these will end up 2 car operated in the future based on the overall fleet

153s are curious. They're not too bad and could be used to strengthen some of the services currently trailing a 142, especially by being semi-permanently attached to a 150/2. Last week I was on a Hope Valley 150 trailing a 142, the toilet on the 150 locked as out of order.

It seems poor management to scrap them when passengers may still be left standing, or unable to get aboard. Anyone who is disabled and relying on a working toilet that they can actually reach on a train must be a supreme optimist. One of the first questions heard from alighting passengers on arrival at an unknown station is "where are the toilets?" Any toilet is better than none.

 

[ed1971]

The hurried scrapping of 142s is mainly down to politics and the bad press they have got.
I think that The Railcar Association has a better grasp of the situation by what they have said here: https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class142.html

 

[northernchris]

It seems poor management to scrap them when passengers may still be left standing, or unable to get aboard. Anyone who is disabled and relying on a working toilet that they can actually reach on a train must be a supreme optimist. One of the first questions heard from alighting passengers on arrival at an unknown station is "where are the toilets?" Any toilet is better than none.

Absolutely! If a PRM compliant unit has its toilet locked out of use (or auto announcements not working) is it still deemed acceptable to run in service? If so, running pacers or 153s with a compliant unit should make no difference and would be a quick and cheap way of maintaining capacity

 

[ed1971]

Absolutely! If a PRM compliant unit has its toilet locked out of use (or auto announcements not working) is it still deemed acceptable to run in service? If so, running pacers or 153s with a compliant unit should make no difference and would be a quick and cheap way of maintaining capacity

I understand that if the PRM compliant unit fails then the service has to be cancelled, yet a PRM train can still run with an out of use WC. That is inconsistent.

 

[SteveyBee131]

I understand that if the PRM compliant unit fails then the service has to be cancelled, yet a PRM train can still run with an out of use WC. That is inconsistent.

Probably something to do with there being trains in some parts of the country that run day in day out without a toilet (class 313, 376, 507, 508 etc) and don't break the law for doing so. It's not ideal for a train to run without a toilet, but unfortunately it's not against the law.

Incidentally, I did see a PRM-ed DMU running in service today without the Passenger Information System working.

I'll shut up now before we go too far off topic though.

 

[sd0733]

I understand that if the PRM compliant unit fails then the service has to be cancelled, yet a PRM train can still run with an out of use WC. That is inconsistent.

150122 non modified was out on it's own the other day on a Alderley Edge Southport diagram. Presumably this shouldnt really have run.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The hurried scrapping of 142s is mainly down to politics and the bad press they have got.
I think that The Railcar Association has a better grasp of the situation by what they have said here: https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class142.html

What's the "high-backed First North Western seating" they're on about?

 

[SteveyBee131]

150122 non modified was out on it's own the other day on a Alderley Edge Southport diagram. Presumably this shouldnt really have run.

Non-modded Sprinters have a deadline extension, and are allowed to run solo...

...[edit] as shown early on in this thread:
PRM-TSI derogations: DfT publish letters with the details
(Sorry I'm not technical enough to know how to make it link to it! )

 

[Greybeard33]

Didn't Northerns original traction plan allow for more electrification like Man to Stalybridge that was subsequently Graylinged (paused).

The eight 4-car 769s were ordered to cover for the delay in electrifying Victoria - Stalybridge and Lostock - Wigan. Three additional 195s were ordered because of the cancellation of Windermere electrification. According to the franchise agreement, by now Northern should have been running additional diesel services from Bradford to Manchester Airport, Leeds to Liverpool via Bradford, Piccadilly to Greenbank and Wigan to Victoria via Atherton. These have all been binned because of the Manchester infrastructure issues, freeing up DMUs to strengthen other services. In the original plan, a number of 2-car 150s were to be re-formed into fewer 3-car units, but that too appears to have fallen by the wayside.

So, once the 769s and all the 195s are in service, and the Pacers and 153s have all gone, Northern should be able to run more 4-car DMU formations than would have been possible under its original rolling stock plan.

 

[SteveyBee131]

What's the "high-backed First North Western seating" they're on about?

I wondered that too!

 

[HSP 2]

This will start off topic but should go back on.
If the 195s (3 car) had been built with two toilets one PRM com. one not. If the non Com. one goes OOU the unit could still run but if the PRM one goes OOU the unit has to be failed. But if the unit only has one toilet and it goes OOU IIRC it's up to the guard to decide whether to fail the unit or not.

I'll let you all try and work that out. It sounds to me if the toilet on the 142 fails the train can run, but if only the PRM toilet goes OOU the unit should be failed. But if both toilets are OOU the unit can still run.????????????????????

 

[sd0733]

Non-modded Sprinters have a deadline extension, and are allowed to run solo...

...[edit] as shown early on in this thread:
PRM-TSI derogations: DfT publish letters with the details
(Sorry I'm not technical enough to know how to make it link to it! )

Thanks, missed that bit of it!! Thought they were like the Pacers running with a PRM unit but clearly not.

 

[anamyd]

What's the "high-backed First North Western seating" they're on about?

Northern Spirit high-backed seating...?

 

[deltic14]

142 092 / 021 / 026 are on their way to Newport this morning.