Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[DanielTheEMid]

Lincoln to Leeds service pacers are banned from Gainsborough lea road to Lincoln central and i am in the pacer ban section which means class 142 and 144 trains are not allowed to run in the section and pacers will stop at retford on the gainsborough central to sheffield service

 

[DanielTheEMid]

 

[Paul_10]

My 80 year old mum is in the same position as yours. The automated PRM announcements really drive her up the wall and stop her relaxing on a journey. She struggles boarding 150s, 319s and 156s at certain stations because of the platform gap. Ironically it is more of a struggle for a wheelchair user to board a 156 because of the narrow doorways, yet these can stay in service post 1 Jan 2020. After the 1 Jan 2020 PRM deadline it would be a farce if rail replacement buses with no toilets onboard had to cover for Pacers withdrawn because of a lack of PRM toilets!

That is the ironic thing about 156s is that the doorways do look so narrow so a large wheelchair I imagine could well be more of a struggle to board than a 142 with its wider doors.

The pacers do need to go though no matter how I feel about them as a enthusiast but common sense needs to apply as well and given how things are going, then an exemption surely is needed if the situation indeed does not improve. Yes, I still expect some pacers to be withdrawn this year when the 195/331 come into passenger service but its unrealistic to withdraw just over 100 pacer trains and 20 or so 153s in a space of what will be 6 months or less, there was a reason why the withdrawal was planned to be done in phases.

We also got quite alot of units still not PRM compliant and that will be touch and go whether all of them will be done on time and then of course the 323 situation and what their future is.

 

[darloscott]

Lincoln to Leeds service pacers are banned from Gainsborough lea road to Lincoln central and i am in the pacer ban section which means class 142 and 144 trains are not allowed to run in the section and pacers will stop at retford on the gainsborough central to sheffield service

Don’t think that is true whoever has told you that! 144s have been to Lincoln a few times in the last few weeks. They’re banned from running south of Chesterfield (to Nottingham) and as the Lincoln services interwork with Nottingham at Leeds they’re no longer booked to go to Lincoln (bar one early service, I believe?)

 

[NorthernAspect]

Lincoln to Leeds service pacers are banned from Gainsborough lea road to Lincoln central and i am in the pacer ban section which means class 142 and 144 trains are not allowed to run in the section and pacers will stop at retford on the gainsborough central to sheffield service

I must've missed that one in the Sectional Appendix. I sign the route and can assure you that Pacers are cleared all the way through to Lincoln.

Don’t think that is true whoever has told you that! 144s have been to Lincoln a few times in the last few weeks. They’re banned from running south of Chesterfield (to Nottingham) and as the Lincoln services interwork with Nottingham at Leeds they’re no longer booked to go to Lincoln (bar one early service, I believe?)

One of the first services of a morning is indeed booked 2x14X units.

On a Sunday, Lincoln services run to Huddersfield via Sheffield and are usually 3 car 144s.

 

[Jozhua]

Hi,
Does anyone have a picture of a pacer working in multiple with a 170. Just need something to keep me laughing for a bit!

Sorry for being slightly off topic.

 

[ed1971]

Hi,
Does anyone have a picture of a pacer working in multiple with a 170. Just need something to keep me laughing for a bit!

Sorry for being slightly off topic.

Hi,

In answer to your query, my Platform 5 Fleetbook states that 170s can only work in multiple with Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 and 172 despite having the same BSI couplings at the outer ends. Maybe this is because the Class 170s are 100mph units?

 

[anamyd]

Hi,

In answer to your query, my Platform 5 Fleetbook states that 170s can only work in multiple with Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 and 172 despite having the same BSI couplings at the outer ends. Maybe this is because the Class 170s are 100mph units?

Actually, Pacer & 170 combos can work Empty Coaching Stock but not passenger service. Pacer & 158, or 150/153 & 170 combos are the "furthest apart" for passenger service.

It's not the top speed (170s can work in multiple with 150/153/155/156 which are all 75mph) but some other incompatibility (not sure what) that prevents Pacer & 170 combos working passenger service.

 

[superkev]

Hi,

In answer to your query, my Platform 5 Fleetbook states that 170s can only work in multiple with Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 and 172 despite having the same BSI couplings at the outer ends. Maybe this is because the Class 170s are 100mph units?

158s are 90mph and I'm sure there's been some "interesting" pacer rides when the 158 driver forgot what they were dragging.
K

 

[ed1971]

Prior to the big timetable change in May last year, I have occasionally seen 142/158 combos on the Leeds to Manchester Vic via Brighouse service. Since this service has been extended through to Southport, it tends to be in the main 150s and 156s with the odd 142. However, I have travelled on a WYPTE livered 158 to Southport around 2005 at the start of the previous Northern franchise, so the line must be cleared for them.

 

[chrissawer]

Prior to the big timetable change in May last year, I have occasionally seen 142/158 combos on the Leeds to Manchester Vic via Brighouse service. Since this service has been extended through to Southport, it tends to be in the main 150s and 156s with the odd 142. However, I have travelled on a WYPTE livered 158 to Southport around 2005 at the start of the previous Northern franchise, so the line must be cleared for them.

I commute from the Calder Valley to Salford on the through service which goes to Southport, and on a couple of occasions over the last few years we had a 158 from Leeds first thing in the morning. Both times the train terminated in the bay platform at Manchester Victoria and we had to transfer onto something else. IIRC I have never seen a 158 go through Salford Crescent and so have always assumed they're not cleared through there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I commute from the Calder Valley to Salford on the through service which goes to Southport, and on a couple of occasions over the last few years we had a 158 from Leeds first thing in the morning. Both times the train terminated in the bay platform at Manchester Victoria and we had to transfer onto something else. IIRC I have never seen a 158 go through Salford Crescent and so have always assumed they're not cleared through there.

They reversed at Salford Crescent regularly when on diversion for TPE and Northern Spirit/ATN. So they are cleared.

 

[Llama]

The Southport 158s stopped in the Dec 2005 timetable change if I am not mistaken. The Lime Street-Manchester Airport via Chat Moss services might have seen 158s for a bit longer but Wigan Wallgate and Liverpool Lime Street traincrew lost their competencies on 158s when those services stopped.

We used to take 158s through Salford Crescent all the time, there was a late SX Manchester Victoria-Blackpool North booked a 3-car 158 and a late BPN-MCV which was booked a 2-car, these ran from 2008 until a few years ago.

More recently there were the Airport-Preston services which saw 158s diagrammed and ran via Bolton. There may even be some current diagrams seeing 158s via Bolton, I certainly passed one on Tuesday evening between Salford Crescent and Bolton.

 

[175001]

Expect to see 158's at Southport again very soon...

 

[Llama]

You do know that from December the Leeds trains won't be running through to Southport?

 

[PHILIPE]

Expect to see 158's at Southport again very soon...

Quite soon. There was one made it there last week.

 

[PHILIPE]

Quite soon. There was one made it there last week.

Further to this:-

www.railforums.co.uk/forums/allocations-diagrams-timetables.44 See Post #270001 onwards

 

[John C]

Lincoln to Leeds service pacers are banned from Gainsborough lea road to Lincoln central and i am in the pacer ban section which means class 142 and 144 trains are not allowed to run in the section and pacers will stop at retford on the gainsborough central to sheffield service

On Sundays when the service is just Sheffield-Lincoln this is nearly always 144 operated.

 

[Grannyjoans]

You do know that from December the Leeds trains won't be running through to Southport?

Bad news for the Southport line.
Originally 170s were meant to do it from May 2018.
What has been on it instead, Mainly crappy 150s. Plus 142s.
Then the news about 158's appeared, a big step down from the 170s, but a big step up from what is on it now.
It looks like even that will be short lived!!! If it happens at all, the Leeds trains will be terminating at WNW from Dec 2019!
It feels like 150's will be doing Southport's forever.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bad news for the Southport line.
Originally 170s were meant to do it from May 2018.
What has been on it instead, Mainly crappy 150s. Plus 142s.
Then the news about 158's appeared, a big step down from the 170s, but a big step up from what is on it now.
It looks like even that will be short lived!!! If it happens at all, the Leeds trains will be terminating at WNW from Dec 2019!
It feels like 150's will be doing Southport's forever.

And 156s

 

[Mathew S]

Bad news for the Southport line.
Originally 170s were meant to do it from May 2018.
What has been on it instead, Mainly crappy 150s. Plus 142s.
Then the news about 158's appeared, a big step down from the 170s, but a big step up from what is on it now.
It looks like even that will be short lived!!! If it happens at all, the Leeds trains will be terminating at WNW from Dec 2019!
It feels like 150's will be doing Southport's forever.

In fairness, the reason the Leeds and Alderley services are being swapped is because that's what the people of Southport (or a vocal minority of them at least) have apparently been protesting at Northern about ever since the franchise was awarded. They are, I would suspect, unlikely to receive much sympathy if having got what they want in terms of services, they now move on to protesting about the trains themselves.

 

[simon7929]

The 2217 from Middlesbrough to Darlington is booked 2 x142 and a 158. Although tonight was 158816/142067 with the other 142 absent.

 

[Greybeard33]

...the Leeds trains will be terminating at WNW from Dec 2019!

According to Northern's track access application, the Leeds (and Blackburn) trains will mostly be terminating at Wigan Wallgate not North Western.

 

[Mathew S]

According to Northern's track access application, the Leeds (and Blackburn) trains will mostly be terminating at Wigan Wallgate not North Western.

Yeah. I think (stress think, no idea if this is right) that the idea will be to continue interworking the Staleybridge and Alderley servives. It actually might improve reliability of the towards Staleybridge trains, which are currently oft-delayed leaving Wigan because of a tight turnaround.
Of course... it will mean there's no way all services can be 769 operated, because there won't be enough.

Of course, until said 769s arrive, that's yet more DMUs that have to stay in service and, presumably, more pacers that can't be scrapped.

 

[Greybeard33]

I do not believe that the interworking will continue, assuming the paths through Bolton and Manchester have to remain unchanged. As I explained in the 769 thread:

I do not think it will be feasible to continue interworking the Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services, because it would make the turnaround times at Southport too short (Wigan to Southport is about 35 minutes).

A standalone Southport to Alderley diagram will be 5 hours round trip, with 40 minute layovers at both ends. A standalone Southport to Stalybridge diagram will be 4 hours round trip. So a total of 9 diagrams needed for the two routes.

That means three additional diagrams, relative to the six currently needed for the interworked Alderley/Stalybridge services from Wigan. Curtailing the Leeds and Blackburn services to Wigan will only save two diagrams, because the timings will not permit them to be interworked.

If the 769s are not in service by the end of this year, Northern will be at least 32 (8*4-car) diesel carriages short of requirements. So I concur there would then be a strong case for temporarily retaining a few Pacers, plus the 20*153s.

 

[Mathew S]

I do not believe that the interworking will continue, assuming the paths through Bolton and Manchester have to remain unchanged. As I explained in the 769 thread:

That means three additional diagrams, relative to the six currently needed for the interworked Alderley/Stalybridge services from Wigan. Curtailing the Leeds and Blackburn services to Wigan will only save two diagrams, because the timings will not permit them to be interworked.

If the 769s are not in service by the end of this year, Northern will be at least 32 (8*4-car) diesel carriages short of requirements. So I concur there would then be a strong case for temporarily retaining a few Pacers, plus the 20*153s.

I really, really can't see Pacers staying on after 31st December, it would be politically suicidal.
As for the number of DMUs needed, remember Northern essentially saved one unit by curtailing the Kirkby services at Wigan. There are now two, 2x2 car diagrams where there were 3x2 car diagrams, with 1 x 2 car diagram shuttling Wigan - Kirkby (I think I've got that right!). So, there's an extra unit there to be used, which added to the two saved from the Leeds/Blackburn runs should make the switch neutral in terms of the overall number of units needed.

Of course, it does mean that the consistent offering of the 769s on all via-Bolton services will now be impossible as there won't be enough of the bi-modes to do it with... but that's just another example of allowing the self-interest of a small group of passengers (Southport commuters) to override bigger issues, in my opinion.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I really, really can't see Pacers staying on after 31st December, it would be politically suicidal.

How do people come to this conclusion? It has no basis in logic whatsoever.

The options are:
1. Keep Pacers into next year.
2. Huge number of short-formed services
3. Huge number of “planned” cancellations or RRBs.

Which of those 3 would be the most politically damaging? It certainly isn’t option 1.

 

[Mathew S]

How do people come to this conclusion? It has no basis in logic whatsoever.

The options are:
1. Keep Pacers into next year.
2. Huge number of short-formed services
3. Huge number of “planned” cancellations or RRBs.

Which of those 3 would be the most politically damaging? It certainly isn’t option 1.

What has politics to do with logic?

 

[Greybeard33]

As for the number of DMUs needed, remember Northern essentially saved one unit by curtailing the Kirkby services at Wigan. There are now two, 2x2 car diagrams where there were 3x2 car diagrams, with 1 x 2 car diagram shuttling Wigan - Kirkby (I think I've got that right!). So, there's an extra unit there to be used, which added to the two saved from the Leeds/Blackburn runs should make the switch neutral in terms of the overall number of units needed.

The track access application for December bids for 12 slots per day from Victoria to Kirkby but only 2 per day from Victoria to Wallgate and none from Wallgate to Kirkby. So it does not look as though the split at Wallgate will continue.

The Stalybridge/Alderley Edge diagrams are normally 4-car, so 12 additional carriages will be needed for the 3 extra off peak diagrams when these services are extended to Southport all day. Curtailment of the Leeds and Blackburn services to Wallgate will release no more than 8 carriages (2 diagrams), assuming these are also booked as 4-car.

The franchise agreement specified a fourth hourly service on the Atherton line, which would have been a Victoria to Wallgate shuttle. Network Rail did not offer a path for it in the current timetable and Northern has not bid for slots in the December application. This service would have needed at least 4 carriages (2*2-car diagrams) and would have been allowed for in the original Northern rolling stock plan. Maybe Northern has "borrowed" these carriages to resource the Southport swap?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Of course, it does mean that the consistent offering of the 769s on all via-Bolton services will now be impossible as there won't be enough of the bi-modes to do it with... but that's just another example of allowing the self-interest of a small group of passengers (Southport commuters) to override bigger issues, in my opinion.

TBF the number of actual commuters from Southport (and Meols Cop) is relatively small and is outnumbered many times over by those from stations further east on the way to Wigan. As such I suspect your apportionment of blame is a little wide of the mark. The genuine connection between Southport commuters and railway decision making is the intervention by the former Southport MP who was able to persuade ministers of the need to ensure the withdrawal of Pacers by the previously mandated deadline despite efforts by some DfT officials to defer it. And as I have noted before the uncertainty around entry into service of 769s means, in the short term at least, that Northern is probably wise to plan on the basis of them not being available. Far more pressing is surely the rate of progress in completing the PRM modifications to Northern's Sprinter fleet.