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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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Already being broken. 5x Ecml first class coaches arriving today. More pacers Thurs/Fri.View attachment 71131 started on being broken up. Today 5x Ecml 1st class coaches arriving. more pacers Thursday/Friday
Can we expect pictures of it being broken up, since it is kind of a historic moment. And also will you be selling any bits taken off it to the 'general public' such as spotters like me?

We have a model railway shop in Nelson and were looking for bits and bobs like that to go on display! :D
 
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Mr Manager

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Hence my carefully chosen wording . "Non powered" No engine present.
As this is the first pacer to be cut up everything will be cut then weighed and documented in an inventory to see the purchase versus eventual worth. So nothing will be sold to enthusiasts etc until prob the 7th or 8th pacer so as to compare various pacers and their contents. I will when poss take some photos and post them of its demise.
 
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Hence my carefully chosen wording . "Non powered" No engine present.
As this is the first pacer to be cut up everything will be cut then weighed and documented in an inventory to see the purchase versus eventual worth. So nothing will be sold to enthusiasts etc until prob the 7th or 8th pacer so as to compare various pacers and their contents. I will when poss take some photos and post them of its demise.
Many thanks for the response!
 

Brissle Girl

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Hence my carefully chosen wording . "Non powered" No engine present.
As this is the first pacer to be cut up everything will be cut then weighed and documented in an inventory to see the purchase versus eventual worth. So nothing will be sold to enthusiasts etc until prob the 7th or 8th pacer so as to compare various pacers and their contents. I will when poss take some photos and post them of its demise.
Just a thought - it would be really interesting to read a review of how the process works with an emphasis on how much is eventually recycled. With all the focus on sustainability these days, together with the undoubted public interest in the withdrawal of Pacers, it might be a good PR exercise too for all involved to demonstrate that the units don't just end up in a big hole in the ground (although there are probably many passengers who might be quite happy with that ending!) Would it be worth reaching out to one of the railway magazines (Rail would probably be the most suitable), to see whether they are interested?
 

Harvey B

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I hope people will be happy with the outcome of potential extra capacity disappearing off to the scrap yard.
As much as I don't like Pacers, I think Northern should have at least got some sort of permit to keep enough of them running until the issues with the CAF stock have been resolved
 

4REP

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So no councils are interested in purchasing these machines for community centres then? or village halls?
 

ainsworth74

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And I'm sure there will still be some people on Twitter who insist that it's all a lie and that Northern aren't withdrawing any Pacers... :rolleyes:

I hope people will be happy with the outcome of potential extra capacity disappearing off to the scrap yard.

They can't win can they? If Northern keep them they get shouted at for keeping clapped out old trains in service but if they withdraw them they get shouted at for disposing of extra capacity!
 

sprinterguy

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sprinterguy

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As much as I don't like Pacers, I think Northern should have at least got some sort of permit to keep enough of them running until the issues with the CAF stock have been resolved
Northern have a derogation in place to operate class 142 and 144 units into 2020, and it's already been confirmed earlier this week that there'll be more 142s still with Northern in early 2020 than they'd hoped.

I think publicly, nearly 2 months after the last Pacer vehicle was supposed to have been withdrawn, Northern have to be seen to be doing something to remove at least some of the Pacers from service, and the extended lease charges must be affecting their bottom line in addition to all the other issues the franchise has been experiencing.
 
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sprinterguy

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Confirmation from RAIL of the first Pacer to be scrapped, and details of the units that have moved from Heaton to Worksop:
05/12/2019 in Network
72e9f9d_w268.jpg

The scrapping of Pacers has begun, with Northern 142005 moved by road to C F Booth’s at Rotherham for disposal. This was a two-day operation (December 3-4).

The ‘142’ was the first to be stood down by the operator, in August. Since then 18 classmates have been taken from traffic as CAF Class 195 diesel units replace them.

On December 3, Northern confirmed that 55 Class 142s would be withdrawn by the end of the year, a figure lower than intended.

When Arriva took over the franchise in 2016, it declared it would rid itself of 102 Class 14x Pacers by the end of the decade. However, delays to the introduction of new trains, combined with delays to electrification, means that 23 Class 144s and 11 Class 142s will be retained. A further 12 Class 142s are to be kept in ‘warm storage’.

On December 3, Northern confirmed that the handback of Angel Trains Class 142s had begun, with nine moving to Worksop over three days, for temporary storage. The first three officially handed back were 142016/022/025. These were followed by 142037/052/064/088/093/096. All had been in warm storage at Heaton.
  • For the FULL story, read RAIL 894, published December 18, and available digitally on Android, iPad and Kindle from December 14
 

Grumpy Git

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Travelling on the MCO-LIV service yesterday morning (coincidentally comprising a VERY draughty 142+156), I was struck by the amount of photographers on many of the stations en-route paying particular interest in our train.

I don't normally travel at this time, was it because it was a relatively nice day, or were they recording the death throes of the Pacers?
 

Ewan M

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I’ve read somewhere that some of the doomed 142s were meant to be going to Sims Metals at Newport Docks for disposal. Can someone confirm this?
 

Jamesrob637

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It is a bit daft as there are currently (today) Stalyvegas to Wigan plus Southport to Alderley Edge running as 2-car, both of which will extend over peak hours and could easily use another 142 as a crowd-buster.
 

Chester1

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There will always be some routes that could benefit from having more seats. Some people (especially northerners) will always find something to complain about. After years after demanding they be scrapped it will be hilarious if there is a backlash to actually scrapping them. Northern is a badly run franchise but its rolling stock plan is not the problem. Its sensible to introduce new units, cascaded stock and get rid of what most passengers consider to be the worst units. It still amounts to a big increase in capacity.
 

Bantamzen

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Already being broken. 5x Ecml first class coaches arriving today. More pacers Thurs/Fri.View attachment 71131 started on being broken up. Today 5x Ecml 1st class coaches arriving. more pacers Thursday/Friday

You know, as daft as it seems, but I couldn't help feel a little sad seeing 142 005 sitting there in the scrappers like that. Yes they were a cheap 1980's solution to regional rail, yes they were worked way beyond their expected lifespan, yes they were often noisy and uncomfortable. But it is my opinion that they saved a lot of lines around the North and elsewhere, had it not been for them many lines that still work today would have been steadily run down & eventually closed. The long gone 141s & now the retiring 142s worked bloody hard at keeping lines going that governments past would have seen ripped up to build housing on, sometimes too hard. Yet they kept on going, almost like a metaphor for the regions long neglected by Westminster.

Say what you will about these old chaps, but I for one am raising a glass to 142 005. The first retiree to go from a fleet that bridged an era. R.I.P. 142 005.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I'm not convinced that Pacers actually were the saviour of marginal routes in the North. The Serpell report was massively unpopular, and in my opinion was more devised as a threat of what could happen.
Widespread route closures would have been very controversial even in the early 1980s, and would have been political suicide for any government attempting to implement it. Several routes that were complete basket-cases were closed or had services slashed (Clayton West, Stockport to Stalybridge).

If Pacers had never been thought of, another solution (more sprinters, or further life-extension of heritage units) would have been found.

Arguably the Pacers did allow reopenings in both the North and in South Wales: the higher availability and better acceleration of more modern units allowed routes such as the Featherstone loop and Huddersfield to Bradford to be reinstated using existing resources.
 

Bantamzen

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I'm not convinced that Pacers actually were the saviour of marginal routes in the North. The Serpell report was massively unpopular, and in my opinion was more devised as a threat of what could happen.
Widespread route closures would have been very controversial even in the early 1980s, and would have been political suicide for any government attempting to implement it. Several routes that were complete basket-cases were closed or had services slashed (Clayton West, Stockport to Stalybridge).

If Pacers had never been thought of, another solution (more sprinters, or further life-extension of heritage units) would have been found.

Arguably the Pacers did allow reopenings in both the North and in South Wales: the higher availability and better acceleration of more modern units allowed routes such as the Featherstone loop and Huddersfield to Bradford to be reinstated using existing resources.

Oh I am pretty certain they did. Without them, I suspect lines like (for example) the Aire / Wharfe triangle would have been neglected to the point of closure. There was little chance in the mid 80s of the government investing heavily in bespoke rolling stock for the regions (not just the North), so without these little Leyland National inspired units there could have been the serious possibility of many lines going to the wall.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Oh I am pretty certain they did. Without them, I suspect lines like (for example) the Aire / Wharfe triangle would have been neglected to the point of closure. There was little chance in the mid 80s of the government investing heavily in bespoke rolling stock for the regions (not just the North), so without these little Leyland National inspired units there could have been the serious possibility of many lines going to the wall.
Services would have been cut in frequency for sure, and it would have been harder to reverse those cuts without the Pacers... but outright closure would have been a step too far even then, I believe. The Bradford Forster Square axis may well have gone, along with Forster Square itself.

They certainly helped to give routes a usable service, such as Huddersfield to Sheffield going hourly. This then made it worthwhile to further invest in those services even to the extent of electrification of Airedale/Wharfedale. I feel the Pacers would have been better viewed as a springboard for further improvements, although they're often viewed (by enthusiasts) as a sticking-plaster on an arterial bleed that is somehow managing to stem the flow.
 

Killingworth

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Back in 1969 pay trains came to the Hope Valley line and all stations were de-manned. Closures by stealth! Woodhead was shut to passenger traffic and by 1976 there was one hourly direct service Manchester - Sheffield stopping at New Mills Central and taking about an hour. Today they're half hourly, stop at Stockport and take only 5 minutes less.

In 1976 the stopping service ran from Sheffield to New Mills with a change necessary for Manchester. Few bothered, especially as it was an irregular service and for large parts of the day there were three hour gaps. This was the market being served by almost empty first generation DMUs.

So in 1985 they singled the tracks through Dore & Totley and took away 3 platforms and 1/3 of the only one they left! That year they gave us our first Pacers - and they ran almost empty.

Railways started to come back and on our line running through to Piccadilly was part of it. We got regular two hourly services. Half hourly fast services have now been joined by hourly stopping trains (although not yet stopping at all stations). They can be full beyond bursting, particularly on Saturday mornings (and when the fasts are cancelled or very late). We see well filled double Pacers out of Manchester in the evenings.

The late Peter Fox (of Platform 5) was a driving force in getting improvements. Kath Aspinwall of the Hope Valley Rail Users Group carried on his hard work and used to say that in the Hope Valley we just wanted a train, any train, at least hourly, and on time. Pacers suit the rugged back packer and outdoor type market in the Peak District. We've been happy to have Pacers and would prefer to have more of them, running on time, and hourly to all stations. Certainly prefer them to the current 150s that get cancelled and delayed so often as to risk destroying the regular ridership that has been building up.

Pictured are a novelty, a new Pacer spotted on an early visit to Dore & Totley just after the station had been reduced to a single platform in 1985. Followed by a July 2019 Saturday service when the guard was having difficulty getting all the crowd aboard ("please will you all move along the train"), including herself! We'll miss our Pacers who've performed heroically for all those years, helping our line to grow beyond what anyone could have imagined when they were being introduced. Despite the overcrowding travel can be fun (although we've had casualties resulting from the crush, fainting and worse). Welcome regular 150s but we look forward to better before too long.

2015-05-25 Dore & Totley 001 (800x490).jpg IMG_20190713_123002.jpg
 

Bertie the bus

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Presumably Northern dont pay for all the paths they book to from works etc the majority of which seem to be unused.
K
Northern don't pay for anything. These units are off lease, and are therefore being moved on behalf of Angel Trains, and are being operated by Freightliner. Unused paths are ten a penny.
 

Paul_10

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There will always be some routes that could benefit from having more seats. Some people (especially northerners) will always find something to complain about. After years after demanding they be scrapped it will be hilarious if there is a backlash to actually scrapping them. Northern is a badly run franchise but its rolling stock plan is not the problem. Its sensible to introduce new units, cascaded stock and get rid of what most passengers consider to be the worst units. It still amounts to a big increase in capacity.

Was the complaints largely from the public or from MPS and the promises they had to remove these trains which let's face it bought so much publicity, most commuters know what these trains look like and can comment on them.

On a passenger perspective the pacers need to go for sure but not at the expense of capacity.

I do seriously think though if all 142s were refurbished like the northern spirit 142s, the opinions of them might be different indeed as the interiors of those ones are quite smart especially since old northern refreshed them by putting decent lighting in them as I recalled they were quite dull inside as the lighting was poor.
 
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