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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,950
Location
Yorks
Why do you consider my post a poem?
It wasnt meant to be amusing!
It is totally unfunny they way they
have allowed this to become an issue.
Andy Burnham would be the first to moan about the railways in his area,yet he was one of them digging at Pacers to score political points.
Look where it's got us!
It's a total disgrace!

There is a difference between pointing out that pacers are no longer fit for purpose and need to be replaced and actually withdrawing them without replacement.

Infact didn't the franchise requirement require pacers to be "replaced" rather than summarily withdrawn.
 
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ed1971

Member
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14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
There is a difference between pointing out that pacers are no longer fit for purpose and need to be replaced and actually withdrawing them without replacement.

Infact didn't the franchise requirement require pacers to be "replaced" rather than summarily withdrawn.

I believe that you are right. Prior to last December, Northern's 142s were still being extensively used. Even all the units put into store in August (except 142005), kept appearing back in service. The PRM deadline appears to have resulted in the massive withdrawals without adequate replacement units.
 

yorksrob

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Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,950
Location
Yorks
I believe that you are right. Prior to last December, Northern's 142s were still being extensively used. Even all the units put into store in August (except 142005), kept appearing back in service. The PRM deadline appears to have resulted in the massive withdrawals without adequate replacement units.

This is my conclusion.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,268
There is a difference between pointing out that pacers are no longer fit for purpose and need to be replaced and actually withdrawing them without replacement.

Infact didn't the franchise requirement require pacers to be "replaced" rather than summarily withdrawn.
But - and I have posted this on here before - Northern have received plenty of additional stock to allow Pacer withdrawal, and I'm not just talking about the 195s. The issue to me seems to be more one of getting trains into service than having the trains. It would be interesting to know what the planned fleet availabilities are against what is actually being delivered.
 

tomwills98

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2018
Messages
292
Location
Bridgend
Not sure if this fits here. On a coach going to the football and saw this in the old South Wales Police rugby field in Bridgend. It looks like they've put rails down in the field as it's a bit too far out to be part of the Ford plant. Too far away to get the number, will try and go down in the week.
 

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61653 HTAFC

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17,650
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Another planet...
Not sure if this fits here. On a coach going to the football and saw this in the old South Wales Police rugby field in Bridgend. It looks like they've put rails down in the field as it's a bit too far out to be part of the Ford plant. Too far away to get the number, will try and go down in the week.
Are you sure that isn't with New South Wales Police? :lol:

(Sorry! It's mentioned somewhere which unit this is, but I can't recall off the top of my head)
 

IamTrainsYT

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Joined
8 Dec 2018
Messages
1,073
Location
Glossop
Not sure if this fits here. On a coach going to the football and saw this in the old South Wales Police rugby field in Bridgend. It looks like they've put rails down in the field as it's a bit too far out to be part of the Ford plant. Too far away to get the number, will try and go down in the week.
those extra units also have to cover there 2000 extra services a week and 37% capacity increase at peek time
 

superkev

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Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
But - and I have posted this on here before - Northern have received plenty of additional stock to allow Pacer withdrawal, and I'm not just talking about the 195s. The issue to me seems to be more one of getting trains into service than having the trains. It would be interesting to know what the planned fleet availabilities are against what is actually being delivered.
Yes this has been discussed before and I remain sceptical Northern can do without the Pacers and 153s without a huge increase in availability of both new and old units, or of course an influx of more secondhand dmus.
K
 

woodhouse122

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2011
Messages
206
Yes this has been discussed before and I remain sceptical Northern can do without the Pacers and 153s without a huge increase in availability of both new and old units, or of course an influx of more secondhand dmus.
K
the 153s need to be Kept and have PRM Mods and the 769s need to be brought into service or we are heading for more chaos when the timetable changes come round again ,especially now Shapps is making noises about re-opening routes closed in the beeching era like the ashington line in the newcastle area
 

adh144004

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2015
Messages
45
Unit 144017 is now marked down as "unit set to be preserved". Once further information becomes available on who has preserved it, the extra information will be added to the list.

As for the 144's that are going to converted to other use, anyone know which units or is it the case of wait and see?

---
#leylandslastlap

Is it possible these two are one and the same thing - ie the 3 cars of 144017 are the prizes - or is this unit set for preservation intact?
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
Yes this has been discussed before and I remain sceptical Northern can do without the Pacers and 153s without a huge increase in availability of both new and old units, or of course an influx of more secondhand dmus.
K

I was in West Yorkshire last Tuesday. The Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Huddersfield service was in the hands of single 153s. Is this the norm now?
 

SteveyBee131

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2017
Messages
651
Location
Grimsby Town
I was in West Yorkshire last Tuesday. The Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Huddersfield service was in the hands of single 153s. Is this the norm now?
It is indeed. Apparently due to quite low usage, as well as bay platform 5 at Huddersfield being very short.
 

Ewan M

Member
Joined
18 Oct 2019
Messages
459
Location
Glasgow
Tomorrow’s scrap move from Gascoigne Wood to Newport Docks is a no go. Think the site is too busy scrapping the LNER HST Mk3s that arrived the other day
 

superkev

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2,686
Location
west yorkshire

trainmania100

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2015
Messages
2,567
Location
Newhaven
142049+009 reported on Twitter.
Nice one cheers,

So I have the following at Gascoigne now.

003 - for preservation by an unknown party
007 also at Gascoigne
014, Gascoigne
028, Gascoigne
032, Gascoigne
038, Gascoigne
056, Gascoigne
060, Gascoigne
089, Gascoigne

It's possible ive missed some moves but that's what I've got
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
Nice one cheers,

So I have the following at Gascoigne now.

003 - for preservation by an unknown party
007 also at Gascoigne
014, Gascoigne
028, Gascoigne
032, Gascoigne
038, Gascoigne
056, Gascoigne
060, Gascoigne
089, Gascoigne

It's possible ive missed some moves but that's what I've got
That's what I have along with HT (8) and NH (16) retained 142s.
K
 

D1065

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
20
Location
Nacton
I was under the impression that C F Booth was going to play a larger role in the disposal of the Pacers, yet to date only 142 005/044 have moved there (by road from NH). Does anyone know if Rotherham is to be the final destination for any further 142s (or indeed if they have their eye on the 143s and/or 144s)?

Various social media posts are also stating that the remaining 142s at NH come off after mid February - this surely should only happen once sufficient compliant stock is to hand? Perhaps CAF have improved their delivery schedules and/or older units are returning after mods. I hope someone can either confirm or deny.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
895
Location
Gatley
I was under the impression that C F Booth was going to play a larger role in the disposal of the Pacers, yet to date only 142 005/044 have moved there (by road from NH). Does anyone know if Rotherham is to be the final destination for any further 142s (or indeed if they have their eye on the 143s and/or 144s)?

Various social media posts are also stating that the remaining 142s at NH come off after mid February - this surely should only happen once sufficient compliant stock is to hand? Perhaps CAF have improved their delivery schedules and/or older units are returning after mods. I hope someone can either confirm or deny.
Another factor to bear in mind is whether drivers and guards have been trained on replacement units. I have read in a few places that one of the causes of Northern's woes has been that it has not recruited enough drivers. Can anyone comment on this - or better still provide numbers of driver vacancies / drivers still being trained to substantiate / refute this suggestion?
 

Mr Manager

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2013
Messages
197
Yes Cf Booth are taking more pacers. Just caught up in finishing the MK4 contract and also the Mk3's from long Marston first.
 

NorthernSpirit

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,184
Both 142009 and 142049 are marked down as scrapped / sent for scrap at Kingsbury.

Red - withdrawn.
Orange - scrapped / sent to be scrapped
Yellow - converted to other use (does not include food tins or razor blades).
Green - modified for Passengers of Reduced Mobility.
Blue - in storage.
Purple - preserved.
Pink - can operate provided that they are coupled to a PRM compliant unit.
Black - class 142 units that are still in service, subject to change in the coming months.


Class 142
001 - Unit preserved. Due to move to the National Railway Museum in York.
002 -
003 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood. Unit set to be preserved by a private owner?
004 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
005 - First to be withdrawn, now scrapped (updated as of 7th December 2019)
006 -
007 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
008 - Scrapped (Collided with a class 87 at Winsford in 1999).
009 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
010 -
011 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
012 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
013 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
014 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
015 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
016 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
017 - in storage at Worksop, Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway?
018 - in warm store at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
019 - in storage at Worksop, unit to be preserved by the Waverley Route Heritage Association
020 - in storage at Worksop, unit to be preserved by the Waverley Route Heritage Association
021 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
022 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
023 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
024 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
025 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
026 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
027 - Unit preserved by Chasewater Railway as a spare parts donor for 029 and 039 + any other Pacer they aquire.
028 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
029 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
030 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
031 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
032 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
033 - Converted to a Police Training Unit by South Wales Police at Bridgend rugby pitch.
034 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
035 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
036 - Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway (is this still going ahead?) - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
037 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
038 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
039 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
040 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
041 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
042 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
043 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
044 - Scrapped, second class 142 unit to be dismantled at CF Booths (the first being 005).
045 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
046 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
047 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
048 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
049 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
050 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
051 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
052 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
053 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
054 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
055 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
056 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
057 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
058 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
059 - Scrapped (Collided with buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street in 1991.)
060 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
061 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
062 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
063 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
064 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
065 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
066 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
067 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
068 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
069 -
070 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
071 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
072 -
073 -
074 -
075 -
076 -
077 -
078 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
079 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
080 -
081 -
082 -
083 -
084 - in storage at Worksop, unit set to be preserved by Rushden Historical Transport Society.
085 -
086 - at Canton, spare parts unit.
087 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
088 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
089 - was in warm storage at Newton Heath TMD, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
090 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
091 - in storage at Worksop, unit set to be preserved by Rushden Historical Transport Society.
092 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
093 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
094 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
095 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
096 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury. The last of the class lost for good.

Class 143
601
602
603 - set to be preserved at the Swindon and Cricklade Railway
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire near Nailsea & Backwell in 2004).
614
615 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire in 2005).
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625

Class 144 - All units stabled at Neville Hill TMD, can run on specified routes and can run solo.
001 - "Penistone Line Partnership"
002
003 - set to be preserved at the Great Central Railway at Ruddington.
004
005
006
007
008
009
010
011
012 - 144 Evolution has full PRM modifications. (Possibly the last ever Pacer in service?)
013
014
015
016
017 - unit set to be preserved. First three car Pacer to be preserved.
018
019
020
021
022
023

---
#leylandslastlap
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,686
Location
west yorkshire
Another factor to bear in mind is whether drivers and guards have been trained on replacement units. I have read in a few places that one of the causes of Northern's woes has been that it has not recruited enough drivers. Can anyone comment on this - or better still provide numbers of driver vacancies / drivers still being trained to substantiate / refute this suggestion?
Bit off topic this but both Northerns and Trans Pennines problems is how do you release drivers for around a 7day new unit courses and how do you train new recruits when all the trainers you have employed in training existing drivers on new units.
I dont know how many drivers they have to train but as a top of the head guess of around 500 at 7 days each is quite some time.
K
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
142050 was built with Voith transmission. There was a picture of it's new underframe in a railway magazine at the time. I am not sure which magazine it was.
 

NorthernSpirit

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,184
Great to hear about another Pacer being preserved, 144004 marked as set to be preserved.

Aln Valley was one of many heritage lines that I contacted to see if they'd preserve one. Lincolnshire Wolds Railway, Mid Hants Railway, Plym Valley, Peak Rail, Lavender Line and Avon Valley were some of the others.

Red - withdrawn.
Orange - scrapped / sent to be scrapped
Yellow - converted to other use (does not include food tins or razor blades).
Green - modified for Passengers of Reduced Mobility.
Blue - in storage.
Purple - preserved.
Pink - can operate provided that they are coupled to a PRM compliant unit.
Black - class 142 units that are still in service, subject to change in the coming months.


Class 142
001 - Unit preserved. Due to move to the National Railway Museum in York.
002 -
003 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood. Unit set to be preserved by a private owner?
004 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
005 - First to be withdrawn, now scrapped (updated as of 7th December 2019)
006 -
007 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
008 - Scrapped (Collided with a class 87 at Winsford in 1999).
009 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
010 -
011 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
012 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
013 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
014 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
015 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
016 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
017 - in storage at Worksop, Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway?
018 - in warm store at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
019 - in storage at Worksop, unit to be preserved by the Waverley Route Heritage Association
020 - in storage at Worksop, unit to be preserved by the Waverley Route Heritage Association
021 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
022 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
023 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
024 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
025 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
026 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
027 - Unit preserved by Chasewater Railway as a spare parts donor for 029 and 039 + any other Pacer they aquire.
028 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
029 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
030 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
031 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
032 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
033 - Converted to a Police Training Unit by South Wales Police at Bridgend rugby pitch.
034 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
035 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
036 - Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway (is this still going ahead?) - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
037 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
038 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
039 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
040 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
041 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
042 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
043 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
044 - Scrapped, second class 142 unit to be dismantled at CF Booths (the first being 005).
045 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
046 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
047 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
048 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
049 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
050 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
051 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
052 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
053 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
054 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
055 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
056 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
057 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
058 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
059 - Scrapped (Collided with buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street in 1991.)
060 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
061 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
062 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
063 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
064 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
065 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
066 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
067 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
068 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
069 -
070 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
071 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
072 -
073 -
074 -
075 -
076 -
077 -
078 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
079 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
080 -
081 -
082 -
083 -
084 - in storage at Worksop, unit set to be preserved by Rushden Historical Transport Society.
085 -
086 - at Canton, spare parts unit.
087 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
088 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
089 - was in warm storage at Newton Heath TMD, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
090 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
091 - in storage at Worksop, unit set to be preserved by Rushden Historical Transport Society.
092 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
093 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
094 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
095 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
096 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury. The last of the class lost for good.

Class 143
601
602
603 - set to be preserved at the Swindon and Cricklade Railway
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire near Nailsea & Backwell in 2004).
614
615 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire in 2005).
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625

Class 144 - All units stabled at Neville Hill TMD, can run on specified routes and can run solo.
001 - "Penistone Line Partnership"
002
003 - set to be preserved at the Great Central Railway at Ruddington.
004 - set to be preserved at Aln Valley railway, Alnmouth.
005
006
007
008
009
010
011
012 - 144 Evolution has full PRM modifications. (Possibly the last ever Pacer in service?)
013
014
015
016
017 - unit set to be preserved. First three car Pacer to be preserved.
018
019
020
021
022
023

---
#leylandslastlap
 
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