Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

[Kite159]

Can't wait to see the all singing all dancing TVM at Salwick International!

 

[johntea]

Two weeks in and I am still yet to hear a verbal announcement on a Harrogate line service regarding the fact it is now a Penalty Fare line!

 

[johntea]

More lines in the scheme from Tuesday 28 August

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe / Stoke On Trent / Glossop
Huddersfield to Sheffield
Leeds to Sheffield / Nottingham via both the express and stopper routes
Leeds to Doncaster
Leeds to Knottingley / Goole

 

[b9_624]

More lines in the scheme from Tuesday 28 August

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe / Stoke On Trent / Glossop
Huddersfield to Sheffield
Leeds to Sheffield / Nottingham via both the express and stopper routes
Leeds to Doncaster
Leeds to Knottingley / Goole

Do the DfT have to approve each route Northern want to run a PF scheme on individually? I’m staggered the Penistone line’s been approved...

 

[swt_passenger]

Do the DfT have to approve each route Northern want to run a PF scheme on individually? I’m staggered the Penistone line’s been approved...

The recently revised regulations no longer seem to require individual stations or routes to be approved by DfT in the way they used to be.

 

[pemma]

I dot understand how members of this forum still struggle with this concept even after the last big thread about it.

If you get a promise to pay then you exchange it for the ticket you want and I'd northern don' provide that facility then that's their loss.

If you have cash and a card with funds available then use your card I can see very very few reasons as to why you wouldn't unless passengers are being difficult just because they can.

Guards still selling tickets on board will be an internal matter for Northern to address but it does amuse me how much interest people pay to others when travelling on the railway

If you have very limited funds on your card and need them for somewhere where you can't pay by cash?
The TVM refuses to accept your card for no obvious reason? (I've experienced that a lot at Northern TVMs but have never had a transaction either off-line or online fail elsewhere.)
You want a ticket the TVM doesn't sell and don't understand the bizarre process of having to select a ticket that you don't want to get a P2P which shouldn't remove your right to pay by card?

 

[pemma]

Examples of when a Penalty Fare may be charged:

• travel beyond the destination on your ticket

When are Northern going to have a solution in place to allow season ticket holders starting their journey at unstaffed stations to make a journey different to their usual one? Other operators allow you to buy a ticket from the TVM starting at a different station but Northern don't seem to like that idea.

 

[Merseysider]

When are Northern going to have a solution in place to allow season ticket holders starting their journey at unstaffed stations to make a journey different to their usual one? Other operators allow you to buy a ticket from the TVM starting at a different station but Northern don't seem to like that idea.

Northern may claim that m-tickets are the solution to that. Of course, not every phone can download the Northern app.

 

[pemma]

Northern may claim that m-tickets are the solution to that. Of course, not every phone can download the Northern app.

If Northern think m-tickets are the solution then presumably they don't need to ensure all stations in a penalty fare zone have either a ticket office or TVM!

 

[Puffing Devil]

On the bottom of the PF page on the Northern Website

This web page is intended as a guide and should not be considered a complete or authoritative statement of the law or regulations.​

With no indication of where a passenger can get that authoritative information.

 

[johntea]

I can't see how Knottingley to Goole manages to get upgraded to a penalty fare line, doubt the revenue inspectors are going to be waiting around at stations such as Whitley Bridge all day as they'll get bored quite quickly! Suppose eventually the whole network will be done of course.

Amusingly a poster has now gone up at Castleford station, maybe I should send Northern a promise to fix TVM ticket considering it has been turned off at least 4 weeks straight now!

 

[ASharpe]

I've noticed in the last few weeks extra staff selling tickets between Leeds and Shipley (and presumably further). I've seen a few tickets being sold and always for the normal price or with discounts.

Why have a penalty fare scheme and then undermine it by having revenue only staff onboard?

 

[Merseysider]

Why have a penalty fare scheme and then undermine it by having revenue only staff onboard?

I’ve seen regular guards on my local PF lines selling Off Peak tickets as a matter of course.

I’m not saying this is the attitude of all staff, but with industrial relations at such a low, who can blame them for taking the commission instead of risking an argument with passengers?

 

[pemma]

I can't see how Knottingley to Goole manages to get upgraded to a penalty fare line, doubt the revenue inspectors are going to be waiting around at stations such as Whitley Bridge all day as they'll get bored quite quickly! Suppose eventually the whole network will be done of course.

I imagine the idea isn't that they are stations like Whitley Bridge but if someone turns up at a larger station saying they travelled from Whitley Bridge they'll get asked for their Promise to Pay notice.

 

[cactustwirly]

I imagine the idea isn't that they are stations like Whitley Bridge but if someone turns up at a larger station saying they travelled from Whitley Bridge they'll get asked for their Promise to Pay notice.

Who is going to do that when Whitley Bridge only gets 2tpd!

 

[johntea]

More routes coming from next Monday, 29 October...

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

Sadly I must be going a bit colour blind as other than the dark blue lines in the map the others look more green than light blue!

Still the scheme means totally different things depending on the staff member! This morning on board "I'll be coming down the train to sell tickets you need to buy one if you don't have one as this is a penalty fare line". Common sense perhaps but it totally ignores promise to pay and buy before you board...

At Leeds excess fares you often see many Northern revenue staff loitering and interviewing passengers now too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still the scheme means totally different things depending on the staff member! This morning on board "I'll be coming down the train to sell tickets you need to buy one if you don't have one as this is a penalty fare line". Common sense perhaps but it totally ignores promise to pay and buy before you board...

This is rather like the sham PF scheme found on the south WCML, where you would really have to be very unlucky to actually be issued with one (and if you were to get written up for a prosecution, unlike on Northern, you should probably buy a lottery ticket too as that is VERY unlikely). More likely soon now there is a plan to staff all stations for the full period of service, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly I must be going a bit colour blind as other than the dark blue lines in the map the others look more green than light blue!

It is definitely green. Well, turquoise.

 

[323235]

I agree in theory, however that doesn't cover someone who arrives whilst the ticket office staff are changing shifts. Anyone aged 16-18 travelling to Liverpool off peak will be overcharged by the TVM as it does not sell 16-18 Saveaways.

I was told that the TVMs that advertise the Penalty Fares scheme with the 'No Card, No Problem' screens will issue a P2P. The TVMs at Broad Green and Chassen Road I've noticed with the yellow screens from passing trains, and you can certainly pay cash at Broad Green's ticket office which should be staffed full time (minus shift changeovers).

I disagree in the case of Virgin Trains Macclesfield where the ticket office closes at 1915 Monday - Saturday and 2000 on Sunday thus meaning that Duo's cannot be purchased for travel on Penalty Fare Northern services and no promise to pay facility is provided.

 

[185143]

I disagree in the case of Virgin Trains Macclesfield where the ticket office closes at 1915 Monday - Saturday and 2000 on Sunday thus meaning that Duo's cannot be purchased for travel on Penalty Fare Northern services and no promise to pay facility is provided.

You can buy Duo's from the Virgin TVM's at Piccadilly-I'd assume this to be the case at Macclesfield too? Apologies if you have superior knowledge of course

 

[Clip]

Large yellow screens now on some tvms informing of the scheme and the promise to pay

 

[pemma]

I disagree in the case of Virgin Trains Macclesfield where the ticket office closes at 1915 Monday - Saturday and 2000 on Sunday thus meaning that Duo's cannot be purchased for travel on Penalty Fare Northern services and no promise to pay facility is provided.

1915 is early. Lesser used stations with a double shift ticket office in the area are open from around 06:30 to 20:30.

 

[pemma]

More routes coming from next Monday, 29 October...

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

Sadly I must be going a bit colour blind as other than the dark blue lines in the map the others look more green than light blue!

Still the scheme means totally different things depending on the staff member! This morning on board "I'll be coming down the train to sell tickets you need to buy one if you don't have one as this is a penalty fare line". Common sense perhaps but it totally ignores promise to pay and buy before you board...

At Leeds excess fares you often see many Northern revenue staff loitering and interviewing passengers now too!

Interesting the routes include Stalybridge-Huddersfield given Northern operate no off-peak services between those two stations.

 

[pemma]

Large yellow screens now on some tvms informing of the scheme and the promise to payView attachment 54358

Yet in putting that message there, the instruction of 'Touch screen to start' isn't very visible! Also I notice no instruction about what to do if the machine doesn't sell the ticket you want and you want to pay by card.

 

[Clip]

Do people really need to be told to touch screen to start nowadays? How about we hold their hand throughout their journey too?

Bloody hell you really will clutch at the shortest of straws every time wont you

 

[sarniasiren]

Northern have recently installed a TVM at Euxton. At present it does not show railcard fares or show P2P. I have sent them an email querying this.
Is it usual practice for a TVM not to be fully programmed initially? Penalty fare notices are up.

 

[Puffing Devil]

P2P kicks in when it becomes a penalty fare station.

 

[bearhugger]

According to a Facebook post by an Esk Valley Community Rail Officer, Scarborough to Hull and Middlesbrough to Whitby are to have penalty fares soon. I don't know a lot about the Scarborough to Hull line at all, but on the Esk Valley line not every station has a TVM and only Whitby and Middlesbrough (the station at each end of the line) have a ticket office.

 

[BurtonM]

A PF poster appeared at Stalybridge recently.

The guards still sell tickets on the Stalybridge-Victoria/Wigan services...

 

[pemma]

A PF poster appeared at Stalybridge recently.

The guards still sell tickets on the Stalybridge-Victoria/Wigan services...

If a guard is not authorised to issue penalty fares then they should still sell tickets as strange as that sounds.