Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

[323235]

Ive seen a button for the P2P on a few TVMs now - maybe the ones at Leeds havent been updated to reflect this yet

They don't put promise to pay on TVMs at main stations. Manchester Victoria has no promise to pay feature on any of ticket machines and has been a penalty fare station for quite some time.

Likewise no promise to pay exists at Macclesfield where the ticket office closes between 7-8pm Monday - Sunday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They don't put promise to pay on TVMs at main stations. Manchester Victoria has no promise to pay feature on any of ticket machines and has been a penalty fare station for quite some time.

Likewise no promise to pay exists at Macclesfield where the ticket office closes between 7-8pm Monday - Sunday.

Macc is a VT station and so Northern don't have any control over what their TVMs do or don't do.

 

[Bantamzen]

This sounds like a load of nonsense to me.


Where cash is accepted at all stops? Funnily enough in the same city where Northern operate lots of trains but have decided that accepting cash at stations when they're unstaffed is not for them?

Except Metrolink don't take potentially large transactions making their TVMs a potential target for criminals.

They don't put promise to pay on TVMs at main stations. Manchester Victoria has no promise to pay feature on any of ticket machines and has been a penalty fare station for quite some time.

Likewise no promise to pay exists at Macclesfield where the ticket office closes between 7-8pm Monday - Sunday.

Are there opportunities to pay by cash at these stations? If so then there is no need for P2Ps to be offered.

 

[pemma]

Macc is a VT station and so Northern don't have any control over what their TVMs do or don't do.

Northern have one of their own TVMs alongside the Virgin ones at Virgin managed Stockport and there's a Virgin TVM at Northern manged Wilmslow so no reason why they can't put a Northern TVM at Macclesfield, other than not wishing to pay to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except Metrolink don't take potentially large transactions making their TVMs a potential target for criminals.

They take very large numbers of fares, though, compared with a TVM at a rural Northern station.

In any case I'd venture that almost nobody rocks up to somewhere like Burscough Junction (say) and buys a return to Glasgow (say) for cash. Your typical cash payer is someone of limited means who will book way in advance to get a cheap Advance or they won't be able to afford to go at all. Someone wanting an Anytime of that kind will be paying by corporate credit card.

 

[Bantamzen]

They take very large numbers of fares, though, compared with a TVM at a rural Northern station.

In any case I'd venture that almost nobody rocks up to somewhere like Burscough Junction (say) and buys a return to Glasgow (say) for cash. Your typical cash payer is someone of limited means who will book way in advance to get a cheap Advance or they won't be able to afford to go at all. Someone wanting an Anytime of that kind will be paying by corporate credit card.

And they are also all in a urban area where regular emptying of machines can easily be arranged, whereas some of Northern's machines are not. But let us be honest here, having card only payments does not stop people with cash only from using their services. It's just another entry in the forum's 1001 reasons to moan about the whole scheme. As a regular user of a station with card only facilities I routinely see people managing to travel by cash, so at least some people have figured it out without creating a drama.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And they are also all in a urban area where regular emptying of machines can easily be arranged, whereas some of Northern's machines are not. But let us be honest here, having card only payments does not stop people with cash only from using their services. It's just another entry in the forum's 1001 reasons to moan about the whole scheme. As a regular user of a station with card only facilities I routinely see people managing to travel by cash, so at least some people have figured it out without creating a drama.

And cash is a dying method of payment anyway. 20 years ago pretty much everyone would have paid cash for a local rail journey. Nowadays it is a minority, though there is more use of cash in the north than the south it'll catch up over time.

 

[pemma]

And they are also all in a urban area where regular emptying of machines can easily be arranged, whereas some of Northern's machines are not. But let us be honest here, having card only payments does not stop people with cash only from using their services. It's just another entry in the forum's 1001 reasons to moan about the whole scheme. As a regular user of a station with card only facilities I routinely see people managing to travel by cash, so at least some people have figured it out without creating a drama.

My objection to the scheme is some cards work perfectly fine everywhere, then the moment they are inserted in to a Northern TVM they fail to process, yet the permission slip says you agree to pay by cash, even if you have a working card that the Northern TVM doesn't like. Then there's the issue of some tickets not being available from the TVM and if that happens you're supposed to select an alternative ticket type and even then Northern are unclear about what you do next - sometimes they say you buy the alternative ticket and then pay the difference at the first opportunity (Can you even use a single to Manchester as part payment towards a TfGM Wayfarer?) and other times they say get the permission slip and then buy your ticket at the destination using your card even though the slip says you can only pay by cash.

 

[pemma]

And cash is a dying method of payment anyway. 20 years ago pretty much everyone would have paid cash for a local rail journey. Nowadays it is a minority, though there is more use of cash in the north than the south it'll catch up over time.

There are also a higher proportion of people in the north that have the modern equivalent to a Visa Electron as their main card, due to poor credit ratings, unemployment or a low income. Those cards aren't accepted everywhere (and that's also not what I was alluding to in Northern TVMs rejecting certain cards, I was meaning ones which would probably work on a conductor's portable machine but for some reason the TVMs don't like them.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are also a higher proportion of people in the north that have the modern equivalent to a Visa Electron as their main card, due to poor credit ratings, unemployment or a low income. Those cards aren't accepted everywhere (and that's also not what I was alluding to in Northern TVMs rejecting certain cards, I was meaning ones which would probably work on a conductor's portable machine but for some reason the TVMs don't like them.)

Though I don't see why TVMs could not accept them. Northern's are all online, after all[1], and if there was a problem with that aspect they could always issue some kind of Promise to Pay ticket automatically. Even most on-board ticketing transactions are authorised online these days.

[1] I use Monzo, one aspect of which is that your phone app notifies you when an authorisation is attempted. I can't recall a single instance of using a railway TVM (and I've used a few) since I had the account, which I have had for over a year, where this did *not* happen.

 

[Bantamzen]

My objection to the scheme is some cards work perfectly fine everywhere, then the moment they are inserted in to a Northern TVM they fail to process, yet the permission slip says you agree to pay by cash, even if you have a working card that the Northern TVM doesn't like. Then there's the issue of some tickets not being available from the TVM and if that happens you're supposed to select an alternative ticket type and even then Northern are unclear about what you do next - sometimes they say you buy the alternative ticket and then pay the difference at the first opportunity (Can you even use a single to Manchester as part payment towards a TfGM Wayfarer?) and other times they say get the permission slip and then buy your ticket at the destination using your card even though the slip says you can only pay by cash.

I have never had an issue with a payment card, so I can't comment about that. However in the case of not being able to use one I would simply get a P2P and pay on-board. I don't have any issues with "lying" to a machine in order to get a valid ticket from a guard. But that's just me.

 

[pemma]

Though I don't see why TVMs could not accept them. Northern's are all online, after all[1], and if there was a problem with that aspect they could always issue some kind of Promise to Pay ticket automatically. Even most on-board ticketing transactions are authorised online these days.

[1] I use Monzo, one aspect of which is that your phone app notifies you when an authorisation is attempted. I can't recall a single instance of using a railway TVM (and I've used a few) since I had the account, which I have had for over a year, where this did *not* happen.

It seems to be certain types of credit cards which Northern TVMs object to.

With those who have cards allowing them to make online transactions only they are probably more likely to be carrying cash and then use the cash anyway, rather than trying their card.

 

[matacaster]

Mirfield. Island platform up 20+ steps to discover that there is no ticket m/c. Walk down steps cross road, climb a similar steps to platform. Warned to have a ticket or promise to pay ticket. West Yorkshire day rover not amongst options. Look for how to get promise to pay ticket - no information on screen, no apparent option to get one?
Man says fined £20 last week at Leeds for not having one. Rang helpline didn't answer. Rang purchase ticket by phone number unobtainable. Only good thing, guard on train very helpful, let me on train said pay at staffed station when you get off - hoping todmorden staffed and i can buy metro day rover and no revenue protection types get me first! However had it been Leeds I would have been fined.
Well thought out scheme huh!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I have never had an issue with a payment card, so I can't comment about that. However in the case of not being able to use one I would simply get a P2P and pay on-board. I don't have any issues with "lying" to a machine in order to get a valid ticket from a guard. But that's just me.

The issue with lying to the machine is that you are effectively completing a declaration in order to obtain conditional permission to board without a valid ticket. If you do not meet the conditions of that permission, the permission could be considered invalid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Mirfield. Island platform up 20+ steps to discover that there is no ticket m/c. Walk down steps cross road, climb a similar steps to platform. Warned to have a ticket or promise to pay ticket. West Yorkshire day rover not amongst options. Look for how to get promise to pay ticket - no information on screen, no apparent option to get one?
Man says fined £20 last week at Leeds for not having one. Rang helpline didn't answer. Rang purchase ticket by phone number unobtainable. Only good thing, guard on train very helpful, let me on train said pay at staffed station when you get off - hoping todmorden staffed and i can buy metro day rover and no revenue protection types get me first! However had it been Leeds I would have been fined.
Well thought out scheme huh!

As stated previously, Northern's Penalty Fares are highly unenforceable due to the non-Regulations-compliant signage; that is not to say that they should be totally ignored, however if the appeals body is at all competent then I'd hope they would allow an appeal at the first instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with lying to the machine is that you are effectively completing a declaration in order to obtain conditional permission to board without a valid ticket. If you do not meet the conditions of that permission, the permission could be considered invalid.

And potentially lay one open to a slam-dunk RoRA prosecution as intent is obvious and proven.

 

[Bantamzen]

The issue with lying to the machine is that you are effectively completing a declaration in order to obtain conditional permission to board without a valid ticket. If you do not meet the conditions of that permission, the permission could be considered invalid.

Well that is possible I suppose, although what would more likely happen is some form of human interaction where the situation is explained and tickets sold as expected.

 

[pemma]

The issue with lying to the machine is that you are effectively completing a declaration in order to obtain conditional permission to board without a valid ticket. If you do not meet the conditions of that permission, the permission could be considered invalid.

Yes it's worth remembering @Bantamzen knows the subsequent permission slip only states an origin station, not a destination station. Someone who has never acquired one wouldn't know that and might think they will be given a slip stating they have agreed to buy a ticket from x to y using cash even if they want to buy a different ticket using a card. Consequently, why would average Joe think it's better to have a slip with a false claim on it than no slip at all, especially when Northern have been known to try and prosecute passengers for not getting a zero fare excess?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And potentially lay one open to a slam-dunk RoRA prosecution as intent is obvious and proven.

Not exactly slam-dunk - after all, we were earlier discussing the situation where the passenger cannot use the ticketing facilities to obtain a ticket for a reason other than because they are using cash. Obviously wanting to pay with card for a ticket that could have been bought at the ticket machine could be considered RoRA material.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not exactly slam-dunk - after all, we were earlier discussing the situation where the passenger cannot use the ticketing facilities to obtain a ticket for a reason other than because they are using cash. Obviously wanting to pay with card for a ticket that could have been bought at the ticket machine could be considered RoRA material.

But haven't the rules long been that if you can't buy the specific ticket you want *but you can buy another one valid on the train you intend to use* you are to do that and "trade it in" later?

The lack of a means of excessing such tickets is a problem, though.

 

[_toommm_]

But haven't the rules long been that if you can't buy the specific ticket you want *but you can buy another one valid on the train you intend to use* you are to do that and "trade it in" later?

The lack of a means of excessing such tickets is a problem, though.

So if I was at Altrincham when the ticket office was closed and wanted a Cheshire Day Ranger, how does the ticket office then deduct the price of the ticket I paid off the price of the ticket?

I was at Piccadilly on Saturday and the young lass in the ticket office couldn't find a Cheshire Day Ranger so I bought a ticket to Crewe, but at Crewe they refused to minus the ticket cost off and told me to write in instead...

 

[pemma]

But haven't the rules long been that if you can't buy the specific ticket you want *but you can buy another one valid on the train you intend to use* you are to do that and "trade it in" later?

The lack of a means of excessing such tickets is a problem, though.

I think that approach has only really applied to South of England TOCs who operate a penalty fare scheme. Elsewhere the advice has normally been if you can buy the ticket you want before boarding you must do that, if you can't buy at the first opportunity - on board or after alighting the train.

 

[pemma]

So if I was at Altrincham when the ticket office was closed and wanted a Cheshire Day Ranger, how does the ticket office then deduct the price of the ticket I paid off the price of the ticket?

I was at Piccadilly on Saturday and the young lass in the ticket office couldn't find a Cheshire Day Ranger so I bought a ticket to Crewe, but at Crewe they refused to minus the ticket cost off and told me to write in instead...

To add a complication there at Altrincham the ticket office is managed by TfGM and they do Metrolink seasons as well, so an instruction sent to Northern ticket office staff might not reach those at Altrincham, even though it would reach the person who mans Hale ticket office on weekday mornings.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But haven't the rules long been that if you can't buy the specific ticket you want *but you can buy another one valid on the train you intend to use* you are to do that and "trade it in" later?

The lack of a means of excessing such tickets is a problem, though.

Under the old NRCoC, yes. But the NRCoT have not kept that; indeed, as others have posted, it is possible to be left out of pocket if this happens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real solution to this is to get Rovers and Rangers on the TVM (or online), it's not exactly a difficult proposition to do so.

Given that they are niche leisure products, making them available *only* online may not be a terrible idea.

 

[pemma]

Given that they are niche leisure products, making them available *only* online may not be a terrible idea.

With the TfGM Wayfarer it's the pensioners who buy the most due to the difference between the Adult and Senior rate being more than a Senior railcard would offer and Seniors don't even need a railcard to get one. Consequently, the group most likely to buy that ticket is the one least likely to have a smart phone or be confident making online purchases.

 

[_toommm_]

With the TfGM Wayfarer it's the pensioners who buy the most due to the difference between the Adult and Senior rate being more than a Senior railcard would offer and Seniors don't even need a railcard to get one. Consequently, the group most likely to buy that ticket is the one least likely to have a smart phone or be confident making online purchases.

Can you not get them from the TVM at Piccadilly? I've bought tram and train day tickets from them before...

 

[Deerfold]

The real solution to this is to get Rovers and Rangers on the TVM (or online), it's not exactly a difficult proposition to do so.

Given that they are niche leisure products, making them available *only* online may not be a terrible idea.

Day rovers in West Yorkshire didn't used to be a niche product. But then they used to be available from post offices, newsagents and bus stations. There's now only half a dozen places you can buy the scratch-off ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Day rovers in West Yorkshire didn't used to be a niche product. But then they used to be available from post offices, newsagents and bus stations. There's now only half a dozen places you can buy the scratch-off ones.

Ah yes, I'd probably more call those PTE Travelcards, and those *do* need to be available from the TVM.

 

[Deerfold]

Ah yes, I'd probably more call those PTE Travelcards, and those *do* need to be available from the TVM.

They do seem to have fallen from favour - travelling on one the other week the guard commented that he hadn't seen one for ages.