Northern Powerhouse Rail / HS3 Timeline and Ideas

[Halifaxlad]

OK, so whilst looking at the 'New Civil Engineer' article in td97 post above I came across another article entitled 'Metro-style service mooted to connect Leeds and Bradford' published on the 13th March 2019. I put this into google and found the following image that appears to be in the aformentioned article...

 

[HSTEd]

Entirely hypothetically, what sort of journey time Manchester-Leeds is achievable just by adding a chord to the HS2 delta-Junction?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Entirely hypothetically, what sort of journey time Manchester-Leeds is achievable just by adding a chord to the HS2 delta-Junction?

I agree with the layout of the diagram, the interesting aspect lies with the two additional dots, in between the dots that represent New Pudsey and Bramley, the text appears to say 'Potential to serve new stations with reduced importance of end to end journey times'. Obviously it looks like the prefered option isn't through New Pudsey or Bramley.

 

[JamesT]

Entirely hypothetically, what sort of journey time Manchester-Leeds is achievable just by adding a chord to the HS2 delta-Junction?

Birmingham-Leeds is 0:57, Birmingham-Manchester is 0:41 after Phase 2. So your very worst case is 1:38. Not sure how long the bit between Birmingham and the junction would be, but it’s not looking competitive with the existing direct route.

 

[HSTEd]

Birmingham-Leeds is 0:57, Birmingham-Manchester is 0:41 after Phase 2. So your very worst case is 1:38. Not sure how long the bit between Birmingham and the junction would be, but it’s not looking competitive with the existing direct route.

That long?

London-Manchester is supposed to be 66 minutes, and London-Birmingham is about 50 minutes, and I know acceleration is a major issue but I can't see it being that big

 

[Ianno87]

That long?

London-Manchester is supposed to be 66 minutes, and London-Birmingham is about 50 minutes, and I know acceleration is a major issue but I can't see it being that big

I'd imagine the Spur into Birmingham itself off the main line would be around 8-10 minutes to transit in itself (being a comparable distance and probably speed to New Street to International today), hence why Manchester-Birmingham journey time is not *that* much shorter journey time-wise than Manchester-Euston; a train can be a good way onwards to Euston in the same time it takes to reach Curzon Street.

 

[td97]

The 'official' annual funding amount has increased by 50% over last year to "aid with development".
2020-2021: £72m
2019-2020: £52m
Perhaps due to the fact that
“Part of this funding will also go to HS2 development work".
Full article available at Exclusive | Northern Powerhouse Rail secures £75M government funding

 

[td97]

The official announcement for NPR to come into the public light is expected within 5 weeks.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Be interesting to see if Sheffield still ends up getting a grand total of bugger all from NPR.

 

[Bantamzen]

Be interesting to see if Sheffield still ends up getting a grand total of bugger all from NPR.

I'm afraid to say this is very likely. If it ever went ahead there would only be one alignment, and one Yorkshire city that would be on the end of it. Leeds is, to put it bluntly (and between gritted teeth being a Bradford City fan), considered way more important, and far more viable for NPR to run through it. I can't honestly see any situation where two alignments were proposed to both cities, nor one via Sheffield to Leeds.

But the good news is that I'm still more likely to win big on Friday's EuroMillions than NPR is to get anywhere past endless consultations. So Sheffield has nothing to worry about....

 

[CdBrux]

I reckon there can be a possibility that HS2 eastern leg is prioritised to start with Leeds to Sheffield, having the happy side effect of switching some money from HS2 into NPR. (And possibly something similar for Brum to Toton with Midlands Engine money involved)

 

[ohgoditsjames]

I reckon there can be a possibility that HS2 eastern leg is prioritised to start with Leeds to Sheffield, having the happy side effect of switching some money from HS2 into NPR. (And possibly something similar for Brum to Toton with Midlands Engine money involved)

I'd settle for that if it means actually providing the supposed 25 minute journey time...

 

[td97]

Bradford is (now officially) on the map for NPR
"#Budget2020 sees up to £500,000 to support development of NPR-linked masterplans in Bradford. Essential recognition of the need for Bradford to be served by better rail connections, and the how a central NPR station could transform the city."
https://twitter.com/Transport4North/status/1237745830788038656
Also detailed at https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/devolution/

 

[matacaster]

Bradford is (now officially) on the map for NPR
"#Budget2020 sees up to £500,000 to support development of NPR-linked masterplans in Bradford. Essential recognition of the need for Bradford to be served by better rail connections, and the how a central NPR station could transform the city."
https://twitter.com/Transport4North/status/1237745830788038656
Also detailed at https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/devolution/

That's half a million wasted then.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Liz Truss pledges to restore full Northern Powerhouse Rail if she wins

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/liz-truss-pledges-deliver-northern-24604549

The article says

Liz Truss will perform a major U-Turn on Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) if she wins the Tory leadership race, pledging to deliver the project in full.

It would mean tens of billions of pounds of new infrastructure investment and new high speed connections running from Liverpool to Leeds via Manchester and Bradford. The move would be a reversal of Boris Johnson's much maligned proposal, unveiled last November, which saw the budget for NPR slashed by £24.9bn, with the original vision for a new line replaced with upgrades to existing routes

Also suggestions IRP will be relooked at lets hope there's no backtracking over this project if it comes to pass and they go back to the drawing board for years.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Liz Truss pledges to restore full Northern Powerhouse Rail if she wins

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/liz-truss-pledges-deliver-northern-24604549

The article says



Also suggestions IRP will be relooked at lets hope there's no backtracking over this project if it comes to pass and they go back to the drawing board for years.

I recognise that Liz Truss is determined to be the next Tory leader and Prime Minister and that making fancy promises might help her achieve that goal, but I do hope she's aware that finding the money for this while simultaneously cutting taxes and holding down inflation will not be easy.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I recognise that Liz Truss is determined to be the next Tory leader and Prime Minister and that making fancy promises might help her achieve that goal, but I do hope she's aware that finding the money for this while simultaneously cutting taxes and holding down inflation will not be easy.

Indeed and Sunak keeps reminding her of this. Mind you the cynic in me believes she will just say whatever to get the votes of Tory members and should she get into No.10 the outcome will be different.

 

[Llandudno]

I recognise that Liz Truss is determined to be the next Tory leader and Prime Minister and that making fancy promises might help her achieve that goal, but I do hope she's aware that finding the money for this while simultaneously cutting taxes and holding down inflation will not be easy.

She may well become the next Prime Minister, but could well be booted out by the electorate in two years time.

Will southern MP Sir Keir proceed in full with NPR though…?

 

[30907]

Liz Truss pledges to restore full Northern Powerhouse Rail if she wins

Leaving aside the credibility of leadership candidates' pledges, the question in my mind is: what is her definition of "NPR in full"? I would like to read the small print.

 

[JKF]

Leaving aside the credibility of leadership candidates' pledges, the question in my mind is: what is her definition of "NPR in full"? I would like to read the small print.

Electrification of the Kirklees Light Railway. In full.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

She may well become the next Prime Minister, but could well be booted out by the electorate in two years time.

A lot can happen in two-year period.

 

[matacaster]

Electrification of the Kirklees Light Railway. In full.

This is clearly a levelling up winner for the north! London gets crossrail, we may get Kirklees light railway (< 2 miles? ) electrified. The public in Clayton west will be ecstatic at the improvement in their carbon footprint.

She may well become the next Prime Minister, but could well be booted out by the electorate in two years time.

Will southern MP Sir Keir proceed in full with NPR though…?

Only if NPR is reimagined to be south of Watford.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Be interesting to see if Sheffield still ends up getting a grand total of bugger all from NPR.

Never mind, they were the first with the tram-trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can’t help thinking that some time between posts #314 and #315 there must have been more recent discussions about NPR? Is this actually the best thread to have restarted?

 

[Llandudno]

Never mind, they were the first with the tram-trains.

I don’t how much TramTrain cost but I would have thought the money would have been better spent on other transport projects in South Yorkshire.

The tram train route only operates twice per hour (almost clockface) between Sheffield and Rotherham, there is already a frequent heavy rail service between the two towns plus numerous bus routes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don’t how much TramTrain cost but I would have thought the money would have been better spent on other transport projects in South Yorkshire.

The tram train route only operates twice per hour (almost clockface) between Sheffield and Rotherham, there is already a frequent heavy rail service between the two towns plus numerous bus routes.

Whatever you do, don't mention that on the SkyScraper City Manchester Transport website as you will end being "taken to task" for having such heretical views by the tram-train aficionados on there,,,

 

[Llandudno]

Ha! Ha!
Seriously I am not against the idea of Tram Train, but to use it on Rotherham-Sheffield seemed an odd choice and then to run only 2 per hour.

May be better on Metrolink extensions to the likes of Marple Rose Hill?

 

[snowball]

I can’t help thinking that some time between posts #314 and #315 there must have been more recent discussions about NPR? Is this actually the best thread to have restarted?

Another thread had already been restarted recently, in UK Railway Discussion, on account of the Transport Select Committee report and before Truss's remarks:

Integrated Rail Plan for North and Midlands

Government has just published (22nd March) Integrated Rail plan for North and Midlands Haven’t attempted to read it as it is 160 pages, but seems to be a rework of one from last November https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-the-midlands

www.railforums.co.uk

There may be other relevant threads too.

 

[Mugby]

Am I correct in thinking that Liz Truss is opposed to HS2 going ahead?

 

[Bald Rick]

Am I correct in thinking that Liz Truss is opposed to HS2 going ahead?

if she is, she’s two and a half years too late. It’s mostly gone ahead.

And most of what is yet to be given the green light is critical to NPR, which she certainly supports.