Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Glenn1969]

But the Infrastructure Commission are believed to have recommended it be cut back to Toton for the foreseeable future. Sure I read that on here somewhere but no doubt The Planner or Bald Rick will know more than I do

 

[snowball]

I've heard of Rotherham Central and Rotherham Masborough but where is Rotherham Mainline or Parkgate?

WAO

New NPR station that TfN want Sunak to fund I think.

That's Mainline. Where exactly it would be I don't know. As for Parkgate, the document only mentions it once, in the self-explanatory phrase

Building on the successful tram train pilot to Rotherham Parkgate

Parkgate is the end of the tram-train route which started operating in 2018, a mile and a half north-east of Rotherham Central towards Mexborough.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the Infrastructure Commission are believed to have recommended it be cut back to Toton for the foreseeable future. Sure I read that on here somewhere but no doubt The Planner or Bald Rick will know more than I do

Not Toton, but just south of East Mids Parkway. Fairly good idea IMO. Enables direct services to Nottingham and Derby, each in around 1h05 / 1h10 I think.

 

[takno]

But the Infrastructure Commission are believed to have recommended it be cut back to Toton for the foreseeable future. Sure I read that on here somewhere but no doubt The Planner or Bald Rick will know more than I do

Didn't they also recommend an underground motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? The NIC is a lame duck talking shop which was only set up in the first place to Adonis quiet, and hasn't even managed to do that.

 

[Glenn1969]

Think the underground motorway idea came from TfN and was quickly abandoned when they realised Sunak wouldn't fund it

Not Toton, but just south of East Mids Parkway. Fairly good idea IMO. Enables direct services to Nottingham and Derby, each in around 1h05 / 1h10 I think.

Good for the East Mids, rather less so for Yorkshire. Sheffield- Leeds express connectivity is currently a weak link due to capacity issues that would have been solved to a degree by HS2b

 

[snowball]

Think the underground motorway idea came from TfN and was quickly abandoned when they realised Sunak wouldn't fund it

I don't think Sunak personally is relevant here. It went very quiet two or three years ago, well befor he was in post.

 

[takno]

Good for the East Mids, rather less so for Yorkshire. Sheffield- Leeds express connectivity is currently a weak link due to capacity issues that would have been solved to a degree by HS2b

I think that's the main issue really. Freed up capacity between Leeds and Sheffield and keeping voters in Yorkshire sweet are the big prizes. Apart from Derby and Nottingham there isn't really capacity to go anywhere from East Midlands parkway northwards.

 

[Andyh82]

New document on the economic case for NPR by TfTN seems to have been slipped out last week. Theres a much better map of the network on the 3rd page than has previously been released.

Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-Connect.pdf (transportforthenorth.com)

I know it’s only diagrammatic but the map seems to suggest Bradford to Leeds may use the same alignment as the current line, which fits in with Bradford’s proposal for a new station serving both existing and NPR

The line between Bradford and somewhere east of Manchester is new alignment not serving Halifax, lord knows where they are planning on building it. This is the bit where it becomes a realistic proposition to something that I can’t actually see happening regardless of who the chancellor is. A tunnel from Low Moor to somewhere near Stalybridge maybe?!

 

[snowball]

The line between Bradford and somewhere east of Manchester is new alignment not serving Halifax, lord knows where they are planning on building it. This is the bit where it becomes a realistic proposition to something that I can’t actually see happening regardless of who the chancellor is. A tunnel from Low Moor to somewhere near Stalybridge maybe?!

The Bradford end is less clear but I think TfN's wish for the Manchester end has been clear for years - a new long tunnel starting near Littleborough, with a widening of the Rochdale line, which is basically well aligned for high speed, unlike the Stalybridge line.

I would suggest not reading too much into the lines on the map - for example they show the CLC Manchester-Warrington line as going almost via the airport HS2 station when in reality they're nowhere near each other.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I know it’s only diagrammatic but the map seems to suggest Bradford to Leeds may use the same alignment as the current line, which fits in with Bradford’s proposal for a new station serving both existing and NPR

The line between Bradford and somewhere east of Manchester is new alignment not serving Halifax, lord knows where they are planning on building it. This is the bit where it becomes a realistic proposition to something that I can’t actually see happening regardless of who the chancellor is. A tunnel from Low Moor to somewhere near Stalybridge maybe?!

The Bradford end is less clear but I think TfN's wish for the Manchester end has been clear for years - a new long tunnel starting near Littleborough, with a widening of the Rochdale line, which is basically well aligned for high speed, unlike the Stalybridge line.

I would suggest not reading too much into the lines on the map - for example they show the CLC Manchester-Warrington line as going almost via the airport HS2 station when in reality they're nowhere near each other.

According to WYCA map of Mass Transit that show NPR outlined on it, this new route is indicated as going between Elland & Brighouse and running more closely with the Transpennine line through Huddersfield rather than the Calder Valley Line so it looks like it may be following the M62.



Im a bit dissapointed that Halifax appears to being left out. Was really hoping for a semi fast Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester service! I don't see why its necessary to send everything via Bradford, would rather have 2 sets of services with one lot to Bradford and the other lot to Leeds.

 

[david1212]

Current populations of city authority areas (min pop 300,000) (ONS 2019)

Birmingham 1,141,816
Leeds 793,139
Sheffield 584,853
Manchester 552,858
Bradford 539,776
Liverpool 498,042
Bristol 463,377
Coventry 371,521
Leicester 354,224
Wakefield 348,312
Nottingham: 332,900
Newcastle 302,820

This list does not include any London boroughs but I accept London as the largest City area in UK. It is just divided into 32 borough the largest of which by population are Barnet, Croydon and Newham

i hope a way can be found for HS2,HS3/NPR to benefit most of these areas

This list shows within the area covered by NPR that the majority of cities ( red ) that will benefit from NPR and HS2 are to the east of the Pennines together with two more ( light red ) that will gain from the eastern leg even with the detour via Birmingham. However it is the western side ( blue ) that has had priority ( Liverpool / Manchester & Preston / Manchester electrification ) and this continues ( HS2 ). Even Leeds - York is still an electric missing link.

If there are cutbacks it is the majority that will loose out yet again.

 

[class26]

I think that's the main issue really. Freed up capacity between Leeds and Sheffield and keeping voters in Yorkshire sweet are the big prizes. Apart from Derby and Nottingham there isn't really capacity to go anywhere from East Midlands parkway northwards.

Don`t forget Sunak is a Yorkshire MP

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It’s interesting that the Liverpool - Manchester journey time has been quoted at a rather specific 29.5 minutes.

That time is all of 1.5 minutes faster than the TPE Chat Moss schedule before intermediate stops were added.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

"My city is bigger than your city!"

"My Dad is bigger than your Dad!"

Etc

Though to truly match the city size argument, one party is just counting their dad whilst the other is counting their dad, all their uncles, and several of their mates.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Bradford end is less clear but I think TfN's wish for the Manchester end has been clear for years - a new long tunnel starting near Littleborough, with a widening of the Rochdale line, which is basically well aligned for high speed, unlike the Stalybridge line.

I know it’s only diagrammatic but the map seems to suggest Bradford to Leeds may use the same alignment as the current line, which fits in with Bradford’s proposal for a new station serving both existing and NPR

The line between Bradford and somewhere east of Manchester is new alignment not serving Halifax, lord knows where they are planning on building it. This is the bit where it becomes a realistic proposition to something that I can’t actually see happening regardless of who the chancellor is. A tunnel from Low Moor to somewhere near Stalybridge maybe?!

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway did once consider a continuation of their Rishworth branch line from Sowerby Bridge across the Pennines to the Littleborough area, but made the decision not to proceed with it, but to keep the main line from Sowerby Bridge on the existing line that was constructed by the Manchester and Leeds Railway.

 

[Purple Orange]

That time is all of 1.5 minutes faster than the TPE Chat Moss schedule before intermediate stops were added.

Maybe so, but then the Chat Moss line can’t provide the frequency that NPR provides and the line will still be there to provide a 35 min journey time, with two stops. In fact the Chat Moss needs to treble it’s frequency and still run slightly slower.

We have:

Scenario 1 where we have:

• 4 tph at 29.5 mins Lime Street to Piccadilly NPR via Warrington & Manchester Airport plus
• 2 tph Lime Street to Victoria via Chat Moss with 1 stop in 35 mins
• 2 tph Lime Street to Piccadilly via CLC with 2 stops (at roughly 40 mins)

Scenario 2 where we need to see:

• 6 tph Lime Street - Piccadilly via Chat Moss with 1 stop in 35 mins
• 2 tph Lime Street to Piccadilly via CLC with 2 stops (at roughly 40 mins)

For scenario 2 to happen, there will still be a significant level of investment needed to facilitate the 6 tph.

 

[Glenn1969]

Depends how much Sunak is willing to fund in the post Covid circumstances. Which is why I said the other day that until we actually see the IRP it's all speculation because we may finish up with the TRU and not much else for another 2 decades. I hope not!

I also think the TfN wish for a 2025 start to construction as mentioned in the document is to say the least optimistic

 

[Purple Orange]

Depends how much Sunak is willing to fund in the post Covid circumstances. Which is why I said the other day that until we actually see the IRP it's all speculation because we may finish up with the TRU and not much else for another 2 decades. I hope not!

I also think the TfN wish for a 2025 start to construction as mentioned in the document is to say the least optimistic

To be a little blunt, we all know this is all speculation until the IRP is released. Even then there may be unanswered questions. 2025 is not an unrealistic target when you consider what NPR is. It is more than new build rail lines between Liverpool & Leeds. The Hope Valley and TRU is also badged under it’s overall banner, plus HS2 western branch despite being separate projects. Legislation for the western branch is being drawn up and we could see royal assent next year, meaning that construction of rail line that will use NPR could very much be happening in 2025.

 

[Glenn1969]

But this is dependant on the HS2 Eastern branch going ahead and the mention of 2025 was I believe for Sheffield- Leeds construction which I at age 51 don't see being completed in my lifetime. Sorry for being so pessimistic

 

[EastisECML]

Corridor	Preferred network options	Best current stopping service		Best potential stopping service with Northern Powerhouse Rail
		Frequency	Minutes	Frequency	Minutes
Leeds - Newcastle	Infrastructure upgrades and use of HS2 (Stops - York, Darlington, Durham)	3	81-91	4	72.5
Leeds - Hull	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Selby, Brough)	1	56-63	2	50
Sheffield - Leeds	Infrastructure upgrades and use of HS2 (Stops - Rotherham Main Line/Barnsley Dearne Valley)	1	39-42	4	23.5
Sheffield - Hull	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Rotherham Main Line/Meadowhall, Doncaster, Selby/Goole, Brough)	1	76-84	2	66
Manchester - Sheffield	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Stockport/Hope/Dore)	2	49-57	4	34.5
Manchester - Leeds	New line serving central Bradford (Stops - Bradford)	4	48-61	6	30
Liverpool - Manchester	New line via central Warrington (Stops - Warrington, Manchester Airport)	4	35-51	6	29.5

So 6 tph from Manchester to Leeds, with 4 going to Newcastle and 2 to Hull? I wonder if existing TPE services will be maintained as a classic service to link to Middlesbrough and Scarborough? Or if they'll be handed over to Northern Connect.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Don`t forget Sunak is a Yorkshire MP

Richmond in Yorkshire. Pity he can't find a spare billion to reopen the Richmond branch.

 

[EastisECML]

The Bradford end is less clear but I think TfN's wish for the Manchester end has been clear for years - a new long tunnel starting near Littleborough, with a widening of the Rochdale line, which is basically well aligned for high speed, unlike the Stalybridge line.

I wonder if that means it could only connect to Piccadilly via a tunnel rather than into the terminal?

 

[Glenn1969]

Depends whether Sunak is prepared to fund TfN's full wishlist

 

[Purple Orange]

But this is dependant on the HS2 Eastern branch going ahead and the mention of 2025 was I believe for Sheffield- Leeds construction which I at age 51 don't see being completed in my lifetime. Sorry for being so pessimistic

Surely you mean the western branch, rather than the eastern branch. I wonder, is there a correlation between age and pessimism or objection to long term projects? I expect the western branch to be completed by 2035.

 

[Glenn1969]

I mean the Eastern branch. TfN's map and full network is contingent on it happening

 

[Purple Orange]

I mean the Eastern branch. TfN's map and full network is contingent on it happening

The Sheffield-Leeds leg is yes, but not Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York. Or Manchester to Sheffield. The Liverpool to Manchester section could be started as soon as the western branch gets royal assent, hence construction in 2025.

 

[Glenn1969]

I thought Manchester was 2b so no earlier start than 2027? It hasn't started its path through parliament yet

 

[Halifaxlad]

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway did once consider a continuation of their Rishworth branch line from Sowerby Bridge across the Pennines to the Littleborough area, but made the decision not to proceed with it, but to keep the main line from Sowerby Bridge on the existing line that was constructed by the Manchester and Leeds Railway.

I think this would be better than having a brand new line all the way from Manchester to Leeds.

 

[Purple Orange]

I thought Manchester was 2b so no earlier start than 2027? It hasn't started its path through parliament yet

It’s only 2021. It shouldn’t take 6 years from now to get spades in the ground given it is almost at the stage of passing legislation.

 

[Glenn1969]

It took 10 for HS2