Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Suggestions and speculation

[Purple Orange]

Are there any details on a phasing plan? I suspect much of it could be run concurrently with TPRU. The obvious big project being Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Now let’s assume it all gets funding, would the Manc-Leeds line be at the front of the queue? Or would that be the section that becomes the equivalent of HS2 phase 2b eastern branch?

It’s also interesting that certain aspects have been omitted, such as no reference to an underground station in Manchester. Therefore has TfN or Greater Manchester dropper this idea?

 

[Bevan Price]

I am not sure how they would find space for a new station in the centre of Warrington. Reopen Bank Quay Low Level ? - But the Low Level route would need a lot of straightening to make it suitable for fast trains. And getting a new route into Liverpool would not be easy -- a long tunnel from somewhere east of the Halewood / Huyton areas might be one (expensive) option.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I am not sure how they would find space for a new station in the centre of Warrington. Reopen Bank Quay Low Level ? - But the Low Level route would need a lot of straightening to make it suitable for fast trains. And getting a new route into Liverpool would not be easy -- a long tunnel from somewhere east of the Halewood / Huyton areas might be one (expensive) option.

Believe it is Bank Quay Low level they maybe going for.

Liverpool is a new route with a new city centre station somewhere in the city.

 

[daodao]

There are often comments about Crayonistas on this site. However, NPR seems to me to a MegaCrayonista proposal. It's a sort of MAMAGA - Make Manchester Great Again, based on a magic money tree.

 

[Purple Orange]

There are often comments about Crayonistas on this site. However, NPR seems to me to a MegaCrayonista proposal. It's a sort of MAMAGA - Make Manchester Great Again, based on a magic money tree.

Manchester is already great. What are you on about?!

Believe it is Bank Quay Low level they maybe going for.

Liverpool is a new route with a new city centre station somewhere in the city.

Could it be realistic to see a link to the existing WCML in to Lime Street from the Runcorn area?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A small number of high profile vanity projects whilst the rest of the network rots through lack of attention or investment.

 

[59CosG95]

There are often comments about Crayonistas on this site. However, NPR seems to me to a MegaCrayonista proposal. It's a sort of MAMAGA - Make Manchester Great Again, based on a magic money tree.

Indeed. Although, that being said, improvements to the ECML would be very welcome, especially with HS2 Phase 2b looming.
ISTR there was/is a plan to re-site Northallerton to de-platform the Fast lines (or similar).
Increasing capacity heading northwards out of York would be welcome too, particularly around the 4-to-3-to-4 crossover layout at Skelton Bridge Jn. (But that in itself is a crayonist-y proposal, so I'll leave that there!)

 

[The Planner]

A small number of high profile vanity projects whilst the rest of the network rots through lack of attention or investment.

Presumably you are voicing your concerns to Andrew Haines that the network is not being maintained?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Presumably you are voicing your concerns to Andrew Haines that the network is not being maintained?

I no longer officially voice my suggestions / comments / complaints / issues / problems unless there is financial recompense due to me eg. delay / repay in the case of rail travel. The concentration / outsourcing of customer feedback, be that to an in-house call centre, or an external company, ensures that all one ever receives as a response is bland platitudinal twaddle, often not even related to the initial point raised.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Manchester is already great. What are you on about?!



Could it be realistic to see a link to the existing WCML in to Lime Street from the Runcorn area?

Nope Lime Street does not have the capacity for 4-6tph on NPR and 2tph from London as well as the other services.

 

[Purple Orange]

Nope Lime Street does not have the capacity for 4-6tph on NPR and 2tph from London as well as the other services.

In the case of Liverpool, isn’t it that the net increase in services will just be 1 tph for long distance services. E.g. 2xTPE, 1xEMR, 2xAvanti, translating to 2xHS2 and 4xNPR. Therefore the question of capacity moves towards what is expected to be running on the Chat Moss and CLC lines and do they need to be going in to Lime Street?

I.e. if a new station is needed, does it need to be for HS2 & NPR or could stoppers be linked in to an expanded Merseyrail network?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

In the case of Liverpool, isn’t it that the net increase in services will just be 1 tph for long distance services. E.g. 2xTPE, 1xEMR, 2xAvanti, translating to 2xHS2 and 4xNPR. Therefore the question of capacity moves towards what is expected to be running on the Chat Moss and CLC lines and do they need to be going in to Lime Street?

I.e. if a new station is needed, does it need to be for HS2 & NPR or could stoppers be linked in to an expanded Merseyrail network?

A new station is planned for HS2 and NPR (which may allow for 400m trains to Liverpool from London)

 

[Senex]

Are there any details on a phasing plan? I suspect much of it could be run concurrently with TPRU. The obvious big project being Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Now let’s assume it all gets funding, would the Manc-Leeds line be at the front of the queue? Or would that be the section that becomes the equivalent of HS2 phase 2b eastern branch?

It’s also interesting that certain aspects have been omitted, such as no reference to an underground station in Manchester. Therefore has TfN or Greater Manchester dropper this idea?

If a high-speed route between Manchester and Leeds is indeed to be built (if such a route can be genuinely high-speed with a central station and a stop in Bradford!), then presumably the future for the LNW line through Huddersfield is for semi-fast and local passenger services and freight. In that case, how necessary is it under the TRU programme to get best possible speeds in all locations? But if no high-speed line is to be built (or if it is likely that any scheme is likely to face the same sort of eternal questioning as HST2b), then shouldn't the Standedge route be modernised to the best possible standard and with adequate future capacity for all needs, using some of the options TRU seem to have studied but rejected on grounds of expense? Doing that would take a fraction of the money "HS3" would need! There are surely two decisions to be taken, but decisions that do have a real impact on each other.

As for stations, what we've heard so far is very light on any detail. Warrington and Bradford should both have central stations, but no mention of how and where, no mention of what sort of station Manchester should get or what the impact on journey-time over a new line via Bradford a terminal station would have, and now detail of the proposed arrangements to allow HS2 trains into Leeds to run through the existing station as well as use their terminal platforms.

One hopes there must be a lot of detailed work underpinning the current announcement and it would be nice if some of the detail could be shared with the public. Or are we just getting a pat on the head and being told that our betters are looking after things?

 

[Purple Orange]

If a high-speed route between Manchester and Leeds is indeed to be built (if such a route can be genuinely high-speed with a central station and a stop in Bradford!), then presumably the future for the LNW line through Huddersfield is for semi-fast and local passenger services and freight. In that case, how necessary is it under the TRU programme to get best possible speeds in all locations? But if no high-speed line is to be built (or if it is likely that any scheme is likely to face the same sort of eternal questioning as HST2b), then shouldn't the Standedge route be modernised to the best possible standard and with adequate future capacity for all needs, using some of the options TRU seem to have studied but rejected on grounds of expense? Doing that would take a fraction of the money "HS3" would need! There are surely two decisions to be taken, but decisions that do have a real impact on each other.

As for stations, what we've heard so far is very light on any detail. Warrington and Bradford should both have central stations, but no mention of how and where, no mention of what sort of station Manchester should get or what the impact on journey-time over a new line via Bradford a terminal station would have, and now detail of the proposed arrangements to allow HS2 trains into Leeds to run through the existing station as well as use their terminal platforms.

One hopes there must be a lot of detailed work underpinning the current announcement and it would be nice if some of the detail could be shared with the public. Or are we just getting a pat on the head and being told that our betters are looking after things?

I think a Manchester-Bradford-Leeds line would really be the last piece of the jigsaw and therefore at biggest risk of never happening. Given TPRU is happening now between Huddersfield & Leeds, plus some electrification south of York, it seems inconceivable that Manchester to Huddersfield and Leeds (eastwards) wouldn’t be electrified by the time the line via Bradford is anywhere close to being ready for construction, especially in the climate of reducing carbon emissions.

HS2 have shown their hand on a detailed plan for stations and junctions in Manchester, that can accommodate NPR services. If I’m not wrong, there is a public consultation happening on that scheme. It would be strange to go so public, only for those plans to be thrown under the bus so quickly by the Integrated Rail Plan.

Of course, this is still all speculation until a business case is submitted.

 

[AForumUser]

Are there any details on a phasing plan? I suspect much of it could be run concurrently with TPRU. The obvious big project being Leeds-Bradford-Manchester. Now let’s assume it all gets funding, would the Manc-Leeds line be at the front of the queue? Or would that be the section that becomes the equivalent of HS2 phase 2b eastern branch?

It’s also interesting that certain aspects have been omitted, such as no reference to an underground station in Manchester. Therefore has TfN or Greater Manchester dropper this idea?

I don't know manchester city centre at all, but from just from looking at google maps could a new station not be built on the empty land 1/4 mile east of Victoria. I doubt they would pursue an underground sation because of the cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know manchester city centre at all, but from just from looking at google maps could a new station not be built on the empty land 1/4 mile east of Victoria. I doubt they would pursue an underground sation because of the cost.

Given that it comes in via Manchester Airport I wouldn't be totally surprised if it used terminal platforms at Picc and reversed.

 

[WatcherZero]

A new station is planned for HS2 and NPR (which may allow for 400m trains to Liverpool from London)

The new station is likely to just be widening Lime Street and moving some of the suburban services underground to terminate at new Central platforms or run on to Southport or West Kirkby. Similar to the new HS2 station at Manchester Piccadilly or Euston.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The new station is likely to just be widening Lime Street and moving some of the suburban services underground to terminate at new Central platforms or run on to Southport or West Kirkby. Similar to the new HS2 station at Manchester Piccadilly or Euston.

New station at Piccadilly and Euston are major expansions. Lime Street cannot accommodate 400m trains nor can it be expanded

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There are several conceivable alignments for Liverpool–Warrington–Manchester Airport–Manchester.

But Manchester–Bradford–Leeds? That's hard without serious tunnelling. A route along the Calder Valley/Rochdale Canal corridor seems obvious... but it's not a wide valley and much of it is already built up. Even then, you'd need to branch off somewhere near Halifax to make for Bradford, at which point the tunnelling starts.

If this ever goes ahead, it's great news for (a) Peel Group and (b) tunnelling contractors.

 

[HSTEd]

But Manchester–Bradford–Leeds? That's hard without serious tunnelling. A route along the Calder Valley/Rochdale Canal corridor seems obvious... but it's not a wide valley and much of it is already built up. Even then, you'd need to branch off somewhere near Halifax to make for Bradford, at which point the tunnelling starts.

After the political arguments over HS2 Phase 1, even in open terrain, I gotta imagine a lot of people are just looking at the tunnel solution and thinking spending the money to avoid all that might not be a bad deal after all.
Engineering problems are considerably easier to solve than political ones after all.

 

[2192]

Given that it comes in via Manchester Airport I wouldn't be totally surprised if it used terminal platforms at Picc and reversed.

Recent modifications to the HS2 plans show that NPR will do exactly that - come in to the HS2 platforms at Piccadilly and then reverse. The same thing could happen if Bradford Interchange was used: NPR trains could come in and reverse. This would be a lot cheaper to build than an underground connection between the two existing Bradford termini, but a lot slower for through passengers.

 

[Purple Orange]

Recent modifications to the HS2 plans show that NPR will do exactly that - come in to the HS2 platforms at Piccadilly and then reverse. The same thing could happen if Bradford Interchange was used: NPR trains could come in and reverse. This would be a lot cheaper to build than an underground connection between the two existing Bradford termini, but a lot slower for through passengers.

How much slower would reversing in Piccadilly be vs travelling through?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Recent modifications to the HS2 plans show that NPR will do exactly that - come in to the HS2 platforms at Piccadilly and then reverse. The same thing could happen if Bradford Interchange was used: NPR trains could come in and reverse. This would be a lot cheaper to build than an underground connection between the two existing Bradford termini, but a lot slower for through passengers.

At the moment reversing is the plan but that depends on what the Integrated Rail Plan says they have said it could be changed for a through station instead in order to allow through running.

 

[Ianno87]

How much slower would reversing in Piccadilly be vs travelling through?

That depends on both the differences in dwell time and the alignment to get in and out of Piccadilly. E.g. a through dwell time might be slightly quicker on paper but might be negated by the extra distance needed to curve to/from the Leeds direction (based on the current orientation of Piccadilly platforms)

 

[mwmbwls]

I am not sure how they would find space for a new station in the centre of Warrington. Reopen Bank Quay Low Level ? - But the Low Level route would need a lot of straightening to make it suitable for fast trains. And getting a new route into Liverpool would not be easy -- a long tunnel from somewhere east of the Halewood / Huyton areas might be one (expensive) option.

The soap powder factory that occupies/dominates the view next to Bank Quay has closed. They also used to occupy the peninsula across the Mersey - (connected by the transporter bridge) so a straighter run through Bank Quay would be possible. The questions would be where do you go from Ditton Junction - (having gone past Fiddlers Ferry NPR Park and Ride) and what would need to be demolished to make the line viable east of Bank Quay?

The new station is likely to just be widening Lime Street and moving some of the suburban services underground to terminate at new Central platforms or run on to Southport or West Kirkby. Similar to the new HS2 station at Manchester Piccadilly or Euston.

Using the extant unused tunnel from Edge Hill?

 

[MarkyT]

That depends on both the differences in dwell time and the alignment to get in and out of Piccadilly. E.g. a through dwell time might be slightly quicker on paper but might be negated by the extra distance needed to curve to/from the Leeds direction (based on the current orientation of Piccadilly platforms)

I don't think you would need a particularly wide curve for a notional northern approach tunnel to Piccadilly NPR as everything will stop there, so it needn't add significant distance and time compared to a reverse-in-terminal solution. For the latter there is the operational risk that the rear cab may not work properly mid-journey when drivers change ends or they may (say) trip over and injure themselves on the walk from one end to the other, or simply can't force their way quickly through the crowds. Step-back working might be implemented to reduce turnround times at a dead end terminal configuration, where a different driver is waiting at the other end to take over on arrival, although that might be difficult to justify cost wise outside the busiest hours, which means turnround times could vary across the day varying the cross Manchester journey time.

 

[Bald Rick]

After the political arguments over HS2 Phase 1, even in open terrain, I gotta imagine a lot of people are just looking at the tunnel solution and thinking spending the money to avoid all that might not be a bad deal after all.
Engineering problems are considerably easier to solve than political ones after all.

Long tunnels mean either lots of escape shafts, or three tunnels.

How much slower would reversing in Piccadilly be vs travelling through?

Maybe a minute longer, with a changeover ‘driver’.

 

[MarkyT]

Long tunnels mean either lots of escape shafts, or three tunnels.

And ventilation/evacuation shafts accessing 'base' tunnels under mountains/significant hills may need to be very deep!

 

[Bald Rick]

And ventilation/evacuation shafts accessing 'base' tunnels under mountains/significant hills may need to be very deep!

Very deep, and, notably, with buildings on the top, each with a highway standard access road to it. Building new tunnels under the Pennines could conceivably lead to building a lot of roads on them.

 

[Ianno87]

And ventilation/evacuation shafts accessing 'base' tunnels under mountains/significant hills may need to be very deep!

And/or you end up with a steeply graded tunnel to minimise the depth of the shafts.