Northern Rail - A Suburban Service for Cities ?

[johntea]

They are counting passenger numbers carefully. In the evenings loadings are low. I was in Leeds earlier this week and the city was virtually deserted at 7pm. People will return but only after 17 May. The summer will be interesting and I expect coastal resorts and countryside to be very busy indeed. Will the railway be ready?

Might get a boost in April as the 'non essential' shops are back and can open until 10pm, plus of course hospitality albeit outdoors

 

[Starmill]

I've observed it being common practice for Northern 153s to run coupled to another unit with the toilet locked out completely, which removes the cost of cleaning it and stops it from emiting waste. In any case as they're not in use from the new timetable, and will be going off lease anyway, apart from the handful already described above, it's not enormously relevant to Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

Apart from the toilet, 153 PRM mods would be similar to those carried out on the TfW 153s or Northern 155s, mainly to aid passengers with impaired eyesight or hearing. Things like a new PIS, door sounders, coloured handrails, contrasting interior colour scheme, maybe new door buttons. Although not a PRM issue, I guess a retention tank would be needed for the non-PRM toilet. Otherwise the toilet could be removed to provide more seating or luggage space, with the advantage that the unit could then be used solo on short routes where a toilet is unnecessary.

Not an overnight job, and best combined with a full interior refurb.

I've been on ATW's and they've made a decent job of them.

In terms of Northern's, the seats are fine enough (if a little too packed)

I've observed it being common practice for Northern 153s to run coupled to another unit with the toilet locked out completely, which removes the cost of cleaning it and stops it from emiting waste. In any case as they're not in use from the new timetable, and will be going off lease anyway, apart from the handful already described above, it's not enormously relevant to Northern.

It will be if we end up with a shortage of rolling stock.

 

[Starmill]

It will be if we end up with a shortage of rolling stock.

A possibility but without knowing what is diagrammed we cannot really say. However I'd suggest a new thread in the appropriate section regarding 153s.

 

[Watershed]

A possibility but without knowing what is diagrammed we cannot really say. However I'd suggest a new thread in the appropriate section regarding 153s.

We know exactly what is diagrammed - Northern have released their diagrams under FoI.

 

[Starmill]

We know exactly what is diagrammed - Northern have released their diagrams under FoI.

That's fair enough but I wasn't really prepared to go though all that with any predictions about what that might mean in terms of outturn capacity and crowding risks.

 

[Greybeard33]

A possibility but without knowing what is diagrammed we cannot really say. However I'd suggest a new thread in the appropriate section regarding 153s.

There already is a 153 diagrams thread:
Northern Class 153 diagrams | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

That's fair enough but I wasn't really prepared to go though all that with any predictions about what that might mean in terms of outturn capacity and crowding risks.

The May diagrams have six 4-car 769s in traffic on the Southport routes. That releases twelve 2-car 150s for other duties - more capacity than the withdrawn 153s.

 

[Starmill]

There already is a 153 diagrams thread:
Northern Class 153 diagrams | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

The May diagrams have six 4-car 769s in traffic on the Southport routes. That releases twelve 2-car 150s for other duties - more capacity than the withdrawn 153s.

Thank you for the heads up.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, the plot thickens.

I mentioned some posts back that the more useful through service from Lancaster at around 20:30 to Leeds was canned in favour of the 21:30 that connects at skipton to a 22:49 back to Leeds. This in itself isn't much use to those trying to get back further than Leeds but is better than nothing.

Having recently checked NRE again, it now looks as though the 22:49 from Skipton back to Leeds is now not running at all, leaving passengers from further West effectively stranded at Skipton.

It's hard not to wonder whether Northern Rail and their paymasters at the DfT are trying to deliberately sabotage the services west of Skipton, as as they just seem to be getting worse and worse. It must have taken real effort to devise such a pointless and unusable timetable.

 

[Watershed]

It must have taken real effort to devise such a pointless and unusable timetable.

It was probably quite simple - take out X number of crew diagrams and cancel associated services.

 

[Anvil1984]

What day are you looking at? The 22:49 is clearly shown here Journey Planner - Trains Times and Fares - National Rail Enquiries

 

[scrapy]

Both the 20.30 and the 21.30 ex Lancaster appear to be running from 17th May also.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm looking at 16th April.

Shows last train from Skipton as 21:49.

 

[scrapy]

It doesn't appear to be running week commencing 12th April but returns the following week. Possibly late night engineering works with buses not yet in the system? Best contacting Northern to ask them.

 

[yorksrob]

Cosmic.

I think I'm going to give up.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So what is the rationale for the 2131 ex Lancaster service (arr Skipton 2244) not being timetabled to officially connect with the last departure from Skipton for Leeds at 2249, assuming that's the case?

 

[Anvil1984]

So what is the rationale for the 2131 ex Lancaster service (arr Skipton 2244) not being timetabled to officially connect with the last departure from Skipton for Leeds at 2249, assuming that's the case?

No, it does officially connect just for some reason its missing from the timetable for a week. Now it could either be engineering work or a data upload error but its in for this week and the week back from the 19th (connection time at Skipton 5 mins)

 

[yorksrob]

It's quite a tight connection, but I used to manage it a few times pre-covid.

 

[Watershed]

It doesn't appear to be running week commencing 12th April but returns the following week. Possibly late night engineering works with buses not yet in the system? Best contacting Northern to ask them.

More likely to be that they've not implemented the emergency timetable further than the 12th.

 

[Anvil1984]

More likely to be that they've not implemented the emergency timetable further than the 12th.

The same service is STP'd for the 19/4 to 15/5 so I don't think that is the case

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing about engineering works showing on NRE yet anyway.

 

[Llandudno]

I have contacted Northern’s Twitter team a couple of times recently and they have ‘assured’ me that many more services are going to be added from 17 May, that are not currently being shown on Real Time Trains.

I remain unconvinced, but I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt....

 

[Anvil1984]

Just as a follow up it seems that it was an upload error as the 2249 is now showing in systems for next week

Realtime Trains - 2249 Skipton to Leeds

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TUC]

Northern's approach seems to completely fail to take into account that in big conurbations there are usually bus services which people can use an alternative to a cancelled train whereas on routes like Settle-Carlisle rail is often the only public transport with any significant frequency.

 

[yorksrob]

Just as a follow up it seems that it was an upload error as the 2249 is now showing in systems for next week

Realtime Trains - 2249 Skipton to Leeds

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks for that, that's certainly good news.

 

[Ken H]

Northern's approach seems to completely fail to take into account that in big conurbations there are usually bus services which people can use an alternative to a cancelled train whereas on routes like Settle-Carlisle rail is often the only public transport with any significant frequency.

The last bus from Settle to Skipton is at 1725. So we need the later trains back to Skipton.
(The last bus from Horton in Ribblesdale is 14:35 but thats another story)

 

[TUC]

Some of Northern's present wider timetable approaches make little sense, For example, the first weekday Halifax-Leeds train used to be c0603, arriving Leeds around 0645. Whilst some of these were passengers changing at Leeds onto London trains, one could see by the numbers departing the station that others were going to work in Leeds for around 0700.

For thevlast few months, the first Halifax-Leeds service has been at 0646, arriving Leeds at 0725. Whilst, as with other services, the numbers travelling to work will be lower, there is no reason to think that, for those who are going out to work, their start time has got any later so it is difficult to see why it is at all serving passenger needs for Northern to make such a late start to their services.

(Incidentally, their first service having arriived in Leeds at 0725, Northern then has a 2nd service arriving at 0730. A late start followed by a bunching of services really makes little sense.).

 

[yorksrob]

I was looking at National rail enquiries for services to Hope in Derbyshire, and I noticed that departures from Manchester Piccadilly are at 9:49, then a gap until 14:49, then another gap until 22:29.

This looks as though it ought to be an error, although with the woeful state of Northern Rail, I suspect it isn't unfortunately.

And it's not just Northern. Clearly the organisations that should be looking after the passengers interest and ensuring an adequate service, such as the DfT and TfN aren't doing their job properly either.

 

[Anvil1984]

I was looking at National rail enquiries for services to Hope in Derbyshire, and I noticed that departures from Manchester Piccadilly are at 9:49, then a gap until 14:49, then another gap until 22:29.

This looks as though it ought to be an error, although with the woeful state of Northern Rail, I suspect it isn't unfortunately.

And it's not just Northern. Clearly the organisations that should be looking after the passengers interest and ensuring an adequate service, such as the DfT and TfN aren't doing their job properly either.

Which date are you looking at? The ones I’m looking at on RTT have a full hourly service

 

[yorksrob]

Which date are you looking at? The ones I’m looking at on RTT have a full hourly service

Tomorrow, Saturday 17th April.