Northern Rail and G4S bullying

[headshot119]

I will NEVER give my full name when asked by a passenger, or show them my ID card. There have been cases of passengers tracking staff down and turning up at the staff's home address to continue the discussion. I am not having some nutjob turning up to annoy my family or grafitti my house, thank you very much.

When we had name badges with a surname on it, in a lot of cases it was a made-up surname. On occasions, I will give my surname as "Smith" when asked.

As has been said, when I am on duty, I am in full company issued uniform wearing an issue name-badge. If this is not enough for somebody who I wish to talk to about a ticket irregularity (because that's what we are talking about), then that's their tough, they are just trying to play silly buggers if they claim it is not, and I don't play that (at least not by their rules). The general public have no right to see my security pass, this is to identify me to other rail staff when I am in non-public areas. The rest of the time it is in my pocket.

If anybody wishes to complain or compliment me to my managers (and I get more of the latter than the former), then writing in with my first name and the train I was on always seems to work.

Funny, your employer seems to think members of staff should produce there company ID card to passengers if asked*. Or so the customer services department tell me.

* in the context of them asking for my name and address

 

[Flamingo]

Funny, your employer seems to think members of staff should produce there company ID card to passengers if asked*. Or so the customer services department tell me.

* in the context of them asking for my name and address

Yea, Customer Service departments in general exist to tell the customer what they think the customer wants to hear, not what actually happens (or is supposed to).

Their other function, in my experience, is to issue something that sounds like an apology, regardless of the situation or whoever is actually at fault...

 

[ValleyLines142]

I will NEVER give my full name when asked by a passenger, or show them my ID card. There have been cases of passengers tracking staff down and turning up at the staff's home address to continue the discussion. I am not having some nutjob turning up to annoy my family or grafitti my house, thank you very much.

When we had name badges with a surname on it, in a lot of cases it was a made-up surname. On occasions, I will give my surname as "Smith" when asked.

As has been said, when I am on duty, I am in full company issued uniform wearing an issue name-badge. If this is not enough for somebody who I wish to talk to about a ticket irregularity (because that's what we are talking about), then that's their tough, they are just trying to play silly buggers if they claim it is not, and I don't play that (at least not by their rules). The general public have no right to see my security pass, this is to identify me to other rail staff when I am in non-public areas. The rest of the time it is in my pocket.

If anybody wishes to complain or compliment me to my managers (and I get more of the latter than the former), then writing in with my first name and the train I was on always seems to work.

Yes but that's different because if a customer wished to make a complaint against you they could identify you by stating what service you were on.

In the case of the G4S member at Piccadilly, that's slightly more difficult.

 

[6Gman]

Yes but that's different because if a customer wished to make a complaint against you they could identify you by stating what service you were on.

In the case of the G4S member at Piccadilly, that's slightly more difficult.

Also, the bloke in full uniform carrying a ticket machine walking through the train is unlikely to be an imposter, and his role is pretty obvious.

The bloke in a bomber jacket standing at the exit from Wilmslow station could be anybody.

 

[LateThanNever]

The bloke in a bomber jacket standing at the exit from Wilmslow station could be anybody.

And bearing in mind G4S recruitment, probably is!

 

[drbdrb]

I will NEVER give my full name when asked by a passenger, or show them my ID card.

So what happens when you try to exercise any power and the customer insists on seeing the identification that the byelaws say you must produce?

"Please can I see your identification"
"No"

Where does it go from here?

Police? I can see them being chuffed at being called out due to you are ignoring the byelaws.

 

[Flamingo]

So what happens when you try to exercise any power and the customer insists on seeing the identification that the byelaws say you must produce?

"Please can I see your identification"
"No"

Where does it go from here?

Police? I can see them being chuffed at being called out due to you are ignoring the byelaws.

Read my post again (more carefully this time).

 

[island]

I don't think it has to be an ID card that has your full name, but there has to be some sort of ID card or badge or paperwork that has enough information that the TOC can identify you if a report is made. Do G4S even have name badges?

It has to be something that is a means of identifying a person.

A number is fine, and a first name is probably fine for a train manager as it can be used in conjunction with the service they were on.

 

[185]

So what happens when you try to exercise any power and the customer insists on seeing the identification that the byelaws say you must produce?

I have a number on my badge, that's all I'm obliged to give out. More than happy to show on the rare occasions when it's required :P

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yea, Customer Service departments in general exist to tell the customer what they think the customer wants to hear, not what actually happens (or is supposed to).

Their other function, in my experience, is to issue something that sounds like an apology, regardless of the situation or whoever is actually at fault...

Exactly!

Which is why we should never work backwards, from what some Customer Services person said (in between making good-will gestures, apologising for something which wasn't a problem, and expressing their enthusiasm for good relations with all their customers), to what the Terms of the Contract said.

 

[drbdrb]

Read my post again (more carefully this time).

So what do you produce to comply with the byelaws when the customer requests identification that you are an authorised person?

(3) Identification of authorised persons
An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

when I am on duty, I am in full company issued uniform wearing an issue name-badge. If this is not enough for somebody who I wish to talk to about a ticket irregularity (because that's what we are talking about), then that's their tough, they are just trying to play silly buggers if they claim it is not, and I don't play that (at least not by their rules).

The byelaws are quite specific with the words "produce a form of identification". If someone merely wearing a uniform or being present in a particular place was sufficient, then the byelaws would not require identification stating the name their employer and a means of identifying the authorised person.

So as before, what happens next when someone calls your bluff?

 

[BurtonM]

My 2p: I agree that Northern's plain-clothes RPIs are unfair and harsh, but I don't have any experience of them from past early to mid 2012 (when I was 16), so I don't know what they're like now.

I can think of two examples:
One Saturday I was with a friend and we'd been to the MEN Arena McDonald's above Manchester Victoria - on coming back down the stairs and heading out of the station, a plain clothes RPI comes up swiftly from behind us, stands in front of us and flashes us a Northern ID in a wallet, asking to see our tickets. We explained we'd only been to McDonalds and come back down, but the guy wasn't having it. Thankfully we both had valid return tickets, so we showed them to him to get rid of him. Another group of about five or six people the same age as me that I know said the same thing happened to them
about the same time, too. This was before Northern really bothered about the Arena loophole that gets you over the barriers, not that it matters as the RPIs are that dim.

A few weeks later, and I'm on a train coming into P13 of Piccadilly - this is when Northern had well placed RPIs on just 13/14 that didn't block off useful facilities, knew how to read tickets, didn't jam platform doors open, and didn't have a loophole involving a lift... Anyway. I'd got off the train quickly to beat the rush of people (it was another Saturday), and was walking at my usual brisk walking pace. The RPIs up at 13/14 didn't seem to have noticed me passing, holding a ticket and Railcard up to them, and I'd got down the travelators and half way across the concourse, and guess who runs in front of me? Yep, same plain clothes RPI as before - 'not you again', I think. I show him a ticket to get rid of him again, and it made me think, this guy must really be skeptical of young people. Just because I look fairly young and walk quickly doesn't make me a fare evader!

 

[Flamingo]

So what do you produce to comply with the byelaws when the customer requests identification that you are an authorised person?

(3) Identification of authorised persons
An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.



The byelaws are quite specific with the words "produce a form of identification". If someone merely wearing a uniform or being present in a particular place was sufficient, then the byelaws would not require identification stating the name their employer and a means of identifying the authorised person.

So as before, what happens next when someone calls your bluff?

I show them my issued name badge with my name and job title on my issued uniform. If this is not enough for them, I pass them over to either my Revenue colleagues or BTP at the next manned station, and wave them goodby as I leave them on the platform.

You can try and find loopholes all you want - if somebody wants to play silly buggers, my ability to mess them about is much greater than their ability to mess me about, and if BTP have to get called away from their doughnuts to deal with somebody with an invalid or no ticket, they will be directing all their ire at them. That individuals attempt to be clever and start invoking small print claiming that the train guard in full uniform was not identifying themselves satisfactorily as a TOC employee is in for a lot of hassle (and a long walk home). This is because nobody likes a smart-arrse.

 

[Anvil1984]

So what do you produce to comply with the byelaws when the customer requests identification that you are an authorised person?

(3) Identification of authorised persons
An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

Yes but if we are being pedantic read carefully the identification doesn't have to state the persons name just the company name and a way of identifying someone. So in my case a namebadge with my first name, company I work for and my job title is more than enough.

 

[LateThanNever]

Exactly!

Which is why we should never work backwards, from what some Customer Services person said (in between making good-will gestures, apologising for something which wasn't a problem, and expressing their enthusiasm for good relations with all their customers), to what the Terms of the Contract said.

It is just that the Terms of the Contract ("as advertised" - they aren't) are unfair! I wish I, in my small business, had strict liability terms!!
It is certainly not "natural justice" and one of these days (when I win the lottery) there will be a case....

 

[drbdrb]

You can try and find loopholes all you want

Sorry, but who is trying dodge the clear requirements in the byelaws? Not the customer.

 

[maniacmartin]

It would hardly be a loophole if a member of railway staff could just produce ID (which I think a name badge would count as, as long as it identifies the TOC) to close the loophole!

A G4S badge would not count, unless it stated that the employee was working on behalf of Northern or whoever TOC.

I've tried to find any equivalent text on identification of authorised persons in RoRA but have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know if it too contains this requirement?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I wish I, in my small business, had strict liability terms!!

You could, and at very little cost or inconvenience to yourself (but I'm not going to tell you how on here).

 

[DownSouth]

You could, and at very little cost or inconvenience to yourself (but I'm not going to tell you how on here).

I will - buy a train company.

 

[bb21]

I will - buy a train company.

Hardly "at very little cost".

 

[BrownE]

If anybody wishes to complain or compliment me to my managers (and I get more of the latter than the former), then writing in with my first name and the train I was on always seems to work.

Best discuss this with your Guards Manager as they (the Guards Manager for your area) seems to disagree with you. When I said 'relevant people, I don't mean customer services.

You should also discuss this with the prosecutions team, who also disagree with you. Perhaps they know more about Railway law than you? I'm sure Mike, David or Ann will provide you with some advice.

Then, you should start presenting your company issued ID card on request.

 

[snail]

So this would NOT be classified as a BoJ, from what you've told me, then?

It would at Salford Crescent. There are no 'concourse facilities', just a ticket office. The nearest food outlet is McDonalds across the road, most definitely outside the station.

 

[LateThanNever]

You could, and at very little cost or inconvenience to yourself (but I'm not going to tell you how on here).

Really - I thought it was available only on a statutory basis? In any case I think when push comes to shove I'd be surprised if strict liability for fares stands up to human rights legislation as nobody has any idea of these 'requirements' when buying a ticket.

I hold an alcohol licence and it could be argued that if you have a licence you are required to be aware of the law and accept those strict liability aspects. But it is still enforced with a fairly light touch by the police - don't think anyone has anything much worse than a warning for a first offence.

 

[island]

Best discuss this with your Guards Manager as they (the Guards Manager for your area) seems to disagree with you. When I said 'relevant people, I don't mean customer services.

You should also discuss this with the prosecutions team, who also disagree with you. Perhaps they know more about Railway law than you? I'm sure Mike, David or Ann will provide you with some advice.

Then, you should start presenting your company issued ID card on request.

I think Flamingo is well able to determine what constitutes compliance with the law, and whether he wishes to do so, without some online busybodies suggesting whom he should "discuss" things with.

 

[Flamingo]

Best discuss this with your Guards Manager as they (the Guards Manager for your area) seems to disagree with you. When I said 'relevant people, I don't mean customer services.

You should also discuss this with the prosecutions team, who also disagree with you. Perhaps they know more about Railway law than you? I'm sure Mike, David or Ann will provide you with some advice.

Then, you should start presenting your company issued ID card on request.

Who are Mike, David, or Ann? I know lots of people with those names, so "dropping" them doesn't impress me (or frighten me) any more than Tom, Dick or Harry.

So stop trying to tell me my job - I don't follow you around telling you how to sweep that street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think Flamingo is well able to determine what constitutes compliance with the law, and whether he wishes to do so, without some online busybodies suggesting whom he should "discuss" things with.

Thank you, you put it more eloquently than I could!

 

[LowLevel]

For what it's worth, as both a platform supervisor and a guard at different points in my career I've always been told I should produce my photo ID if requested when enforcing any byelaws or if I am asked to provide evidence of my competency to a supervisor or other inspector. I can only speak for my own experience though.

It's no different to having to sign a UPFN with your real name and AC number rather than a badge name for example. You start to get woven into legal process rather than just normal day to day customer service.

Again in a different situation but not a world apart, when I was a benefits office decision maker I had to complete paperwork with my full name and signature.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Really - I thought it was available only on a statutory basis?

Yes, really.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

To quote the bylaws:

shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

I see no requirement for Flamingo to show any form of photo ID or full name to anybody.

To those being particularly obtuse I shall simplify it for you: he only needs to present the name of his employer (generally written on the uniform), and a means of identifying him. The means could be a fake name, as long as the TOC (not the passenger) are able to identify him.

If anyone disagrees, please feel free to speak to Jeff, Amy or Kevin.*

Personally speaking (from a different industry), I am required to give my name to anyone who requests it (it's also on my paperwork), and let me tell you it causes no end of trouble, the most harmless of which is staff being added on Facebook.

* - definitely did not just make these names up

 

[34D]

Flamingo - I think you should go to speak to Kelly, Lucy, Keeley or Rosie aswell. And Melinda too.

I agree that staff using their surnames at work is an issue.

North Yorks County Council issues a pink badge to every school bus driver who is allowed to drive their schoolbuses. The rule recently changed from "produce on request" to "wear visibly".

Every term there is some kind of teenage girl plus male bus driver incident - the open advertising of surnames is just going to exacerbate it.

 

[bigfoote]

To throw my two penneth in. When I was working as a sub-contractor for South Central (back in 2003), I was issued with both a warrant card for my security company, and also a photo ID with my first name and an ID number with wording authorising me as a ticket inspector working on behalf and under the authority of South Central. My surname was never used, and we were told if we ever needed to, we should give the ID number as a surname.