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Northern Rail and G4S bullying

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the sniper

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Got to say that I'm amused by how it was recommended to the OP that he should contact his MP and BTP about the conduct of the G4S guy, ignoring that the OP seemingly admitted in his opening post that he committed Common Assault against the authorised person because he didn't believe they'd fulfilled a legal obligation of a byelaw, having seemingly committed a technical breach of the byelaws himself...

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Flamingo

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Flamingo - I think you should go to speak to Kelly, Lucy, Keeley or Rosie aswell. And Melinda too.

I agree that staff using their surnames at work is an issue.

North Yorks County Council issues a pink badge to every school bus driver who is allowed to drive their schoolbuses. The rule recently changed from "produce on request" to "wear visibly".

Every term there is some kind of teenage girl plus male bus driver incident - the open advertising of surnames is just going to exacerbate it.
I'm not going near Melinda, she's a right cow :lol:
 

island

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To throw my two penneth in. When I was working as a sub-contractor for South Central (back in 2003), I was issued with both a warrant card for my security company, and also a photo ID with my first name and an ID number with wording authorising me as a ticket inspector working on behalf and under the authority of South Central. My surname was never used, and we were told if we ever needed to, we should give the ID number as a surname.

Northern Ireland Railways RPIs have badges with only their staff number and no name at all.
 

Deerfold

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Looks like the OP didn't hear what they wanted to - it's 6 days since their last post.
 

DutchTrance

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No no, I'm still here and reading. I just feel that I had the information I required for my letter of complaint which went in a few days ago.
I'll update when I get any results from them besides 'Thank you we'll keep it on file' but in the mean time the topic seems to have gone a bit wonky!
I came on here to try and ascertain the powers that a g4s person has and whether what he did was a guy making things up to 'bully' those who don't know the rules, or some one who has the powers he described but it was just a case of a customer service attitude. I keep reading the thread and it seems to me there is still a lot of ambiguity around the issue.
As for common assault, lol.
Any way, will keep reading and waiting for a response from Northern.
 

andy90870

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No no, I'm still here and reading. I just feel that I had the information I required for my letter of complaint which went in a few days ago.
I'll update when I get any results from them besides 'Thank you we'll keep it on file' but in the mean time the topic seems to have gone a bit wonky!
I came on here to try and ascertain the powers that a g4s person has and whether what he did was a guy making things up to 'bully' those who don't know the rules, or some one who has the powers he described but it was just a case of a customer service attitude. I keep reading the thread and it seems to me there is still a lot of ambiguity around the issue.
As for common assault, lol.
Any way, will keep reading and waiting for a response from Northern.

Hi DutchTrance

I work for G4S as RPI (don’t judge me just yet :))

1. Traveling without a VALID ticked is an offence and you can be in trouble for that.

2. an RPI can follow you if they find you suspect, but only as far as the station enters on to public streets e.g. main doors etc. etc. any further and that’s classed as harassment which you are fully within your rights the law to say something to the GM police or the press, not the BTP.

3. You should have been caught before you managed to get out on to the concourse, if not then it’s the staffs stupid fault for not paying attention to detail.

4. If they don’t show you ID and are plain clothed, tell them to sod off unless they produce the ID first. Which you MUST show them if they do. Simple as that.

5. If you are asked questions after they show you id then you should answer them fully and honestly it makes YOU look better.

6. In regards to you reaching for them, NEVER do that as it can be classed as assault. Never ever reach or touch them because a lot of our staff will find it offensive and can report you for it and it will be caught on CCTV and they will always win.

7. When he grabbed your hand that’s assault on his behalf, G4S are STRICTLY HANDS OFF unless it is in their own personal defence against an attack. He should NEVER have touched you FULL STOP.

8. When he said he would be keeping an eye out for you and will catch you next time that’s a threat which he should never have made and you have every right to report him to any authority you wish.
but I also want you to remember this, as an RPI myself as soon as I took my eyes off you I’ve forgotten you already bare in mind I see 10s of thousands of people a day, remember that because it’s like I said before threatening behaviour and you should never have to tolerate it.

9. if a member of the public wishes to know who the person is in regards to identification them then all they have to give you is first name and there 5 or 6 digit identification number for example " I’m Jim, 123456" and that’s all you need to know because once you report that person our management team knows who it was instantly.

I hope that helps and I would really like to know what happens in regards to the incident that you have reported, and I also want to apologise for the mistreatment of the staff members and there unprofessionalism I have seen too many cowboys in this job already so I know where you’re coming from. I hate having to say I work for G4S because we are all tarnished with the same brush everyone sees us as whether it’s the media the staff mistreatment or the unprofessionalism some of the staff members are.

I also want to say that even though there’s always the bad apples in a company there are also incredibly helpful professional and polite staff members that work for G4S/northern rail but we are all ruled by how our managers want us to treat people so on that note i apologise again.

i really hope something good comes out of this for you and that you dont taint us all with how you was treated by 1 insignificant member of staff out of the over 250 staff members that we have.

andy

ps. if anyone wants to ask me anything please let me know and ill try and answer to the best of my knowledge.
 

LowLevel

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I should probably point out Andy that most people's issues are with the employer and the people who give them contracts - ie the TOC. It's completely unfair and demoralising to see people on crap wages and conditions doing jobs alongside other people who are paid a decent wage and are encouraged to work well, have a decent pension etc. There's no need for it and it's inexcusable. How the contracts I see are worth anything to the TOC I don't know - constant messages pinging out at weekends about no catering staff available and things like cleaners just not turning up. What do they expect when they will contract the work to minimum wage slave drivers.
 

island

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Andy, welcome to the forum. On point 4 about ID, if I'm understanding you correctly you say a passenger must show an RPI ID if the RPI asks for it and shows theirs. This is incorrect. A passenger is not under a general obligation to show ID (save where his ticket is supported by ID such as a season ticket or ticket with Y-P discount).
 

drbdrb

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9. if a member of the public wishes to know who the person is in regards to identification them then all they have to give you is first name and there 5 or 6 digit identification number for example " I’m Jim, 123456" and that’s all you need to know because once you report that person our management team knows who it was instantly.

That is a very strange reading of the byelaws -

An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

Merely stating your first name and an ID number is not producing a form of identification.

Rather shocking that someone who is tasked with enforcing the law either missed part of their training or is deliberately ignoring it.
 

Llanigraham

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I'd be careful about this statement too:

2. an RPI can follow you if they find you suspect, but only as far as the station enters on to public streets e.g. main doors etc. etc. any further and that’s classed as harassment which you are fully within your rights the law to say something to the GM police or the press, not the BTP.

There are many stations where the Railway Premises continues well beyond the direct frontage of the building. What might appear to be a "street" isn't!!
 

reb0118

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Rather shocking that someone who is tasked with enforcing the law either missed part of their training or is deliberately ignoring it.

I get the implication here that you are blaming the employee for this? NB the employer may also be at fault for providing inadequate training, instruction, or indeed supervision.
 
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MyFriendMary

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That is a very strange reading of the byelaws -





An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.





Merely stating your first name and an ID number is not producing a form of identification.




If the individual produced the pass/badge that stated it on, wouldn't that be enough to identify the individual? Since some, myself included, wouldn't want to give out my full name. However a means of identifying me, without my full name, is possible
 

Clip

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I'd be careful about this statement too:

2. an RPI can follow you if they find you suspect, but only as far as the station enters on to public streets e.g. main doors etc. etc. any further and that’s classed as harassment which you are fully within your rights the law to say something to the GM police or the press, not the BTP.

There are many stations where the Railway Premises continues well beyond the direct frontage of the building. What might appear to be a "street" isn't!!

Indeed, I know at least one of my stations where the land is still the railways yet its an alley that runs up a hill and far away from the station before it ends.

Im unaware of Manchesters boundrys of any of its stations but never assume it stops when you get through the doors
 

Scotty

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That is a very strange reading of the byelaws -

An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

Merely stating your first name and an ID number is not producing a form of identification.

Rather shocking that someone who is tasked with enforcing the law either missed part of their training or is deliberately ignoring it.

Surely a first name and ID number is VERY identifiable to the TOC/agency. This is a form of identification.
 

drbdrb

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Surely a first name and ID number is VERY identifiable to the TOC/agency. This is a form of identification.

You are missing the point.

It is not that the employer can identify the staff member (and surely the employer knows where their own staff are anyway).

It is that when the "authorised person" is "exercising any power", the person on whom they are exercising that power knowns that they are an "authorised person" by being required to "produce a form of identification when requested".

The byelaws are quite precise in their wording and "produce a form of identification" doesn't mean, "I'm Jim, number xxxxxx", because if they did they would say that. And they don't.

So if someone acts like an "authorised person", but refuses to produce identification, is it wise to co-operate with this person who has either been badly trained or is ignoring their training, as it doesn't bode well for what they will do next.

Or would it be wiser not to treat them as an "authorised person" and just ignore them.
 

pemma

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Im unaware of Manchesters boundrys of any of its stations but never assume it stops when you get through the doors

Given part of Victoria is used by Metrolink and not National Rail I wonder if you could be within the station building on the Metrolink platforms and considered not to be on railway property.
 

34D

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Given part of Victoria is used by Metrolink and not National Rail I wonder if you could be within the station building on the Metrolink platforms and considered not to be on railway property.

I would suggest that 'railway premises' and 'land owned or leased by a railway company' could be very different
 

DownSouth

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I would suggest that 'railway premises' and 'land owned or leased by a railway company' could be very different
And if terms like that are not clearly defined and consistently applied across all relevant legislation and regulations then the rail industry has a major potential problem on their hands. When laws are not clearly defined it then falls to judge to establish the meaning through setting precedents, which doesn't always go the 'sensible' way if one side does a significantly better job of arguing their case than the other.
 
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