Northern Rail Drivers Strike

[Greenback]

I agree, just as long as all of the Northern fans on here don't come asking for even MORE subsidy!

I didn't know there were any Northern fans on here

 

[Robertj21a]

What else is on the table ? Its never just about the money. Before any stones are thrown. If they believe they are worth the money they should be allowed to fight for every penny. Why settle for less ? What happens next year or the year after ?

Far too often it's the *comparison* of wage rates that's the problem. Staff seem to always think that they should have more money, totally regardless of whether it's a fully comparable role. Perhaps some should appreciate just how much they're already being paid before holding the travelling public to ransom.

 

[8J]

Do you really think it is the front line staff holding the travelling public to ransom as you put it or do you think it's the ludicrously overpaid meaningless high end directors and managers? Or how about the millions that are paid out to shareholders? A drivers pay rise will be a drop in the ocean compared to the savings that could be made higher up the chain!!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I know what train services are like, but you were saying people would use the buses instead and put them are bursting point....

I said they had other means on weekdays, maybe that is a bus, maybe it is the tram, maybe they can get a lift with a friend or colleague, or maybe they own a car and can drive for a day, perhaps there are other options.

I said transport on 'Christmas Saturdays' (plural) will be at bursting point.

....Would people really want to make a 50 minute trip by bus in to Manchester when if they wait until the following Saturday they could make a 25 minute trip by train?

What do you mean "the following Saturday"? The last FIVE Saturdays and Sundays before Christmas are rammed. It's not a case of one Saturday being really busy and all the rest really quiet, they are all very busy days.

 

[Minilad]

Do you really think it is the front line staff holding the travelling public to ransom as you put it or do you think it's the ludicrously overpaid meaningless high end directors and managers? Or how about the millions that are paid out to shareholders? A drivers pay rise will be a drop in the ocean compared to the savings that could be made higher up the chain!!!

Nope it's the staff. It's always the staff
Always amazes me that management are never at fault for breakdowns in relations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wishing to bring a little light relief onto this thread, may I cite the rant by Basil Fawlty about British Leyland car workers on strike in "The Kipper and the Corpse" programme.....

"Another car strike. Marvellous isn't it? The taxpayers pay them millions each year so they can go on strike. It's called Socialism. If they don't like making cars, why don't get themselves another job...designing cathedrals or composing violin concertos. That's it. The British Leyland Concerto..in four movements, all of them slow, with a four-hour tea break in between each movement."

Life needs humour at times....

 

[ComUtoR]

Far too often it's the *comparison* of wage rates that's the problem.

Really. How is it a problem ? On a basic level all Drivers are doing the same job. The disparity in wages and conditions across the sector is wide and only getting bigger as wages are a "race to the bottom" If someone else in your employment sector was on a significantly higher rate for the same job, surely you would want a similar level of pay.

Staff seem to always think that they should have more money, totally regardless of whether it's a fully comparable role.

Everyone wants a better rate of pay. I don't know a single employee anywhere who would reject more pay or is happy to sit at their pay level. Chuck in the fact that a basic cost of living is rapidly increasing with bills increasing above inflation as well as rising house prices and the ever increasing child care costs.

Perhaps some should appreciate just how much they're already being paid before holding the travelling public to ransom.

Who is holding the public to ransom ? Ticket prices increases are not just about wages. A significant portion of the ticket price is going towards rising infrastructure costs as well as much needed improvements and investment into rolling stock and new track. Its hard for me to admit but I actually believe in the government when they state that the passenger must pay for their travel. and that the burden to the taxpayer should be reduced. One of those taxpayers is the Driver.

As a passenger what do you want ? Personally I want a well paid and well trained Driver up the pointy end making sure that I and my children arrive safely. To use an analogy of the Gov again. To keep valued employees and keep the best of them. You have to pay a decent wage.

What happens if the railway starts to fall behind in wages ? Those well trained and in demand Drivers at Northern start to transfer to another TOC which will cause disruption (as evidenced recently) and where does that leave the public ? No Drivers, no service.

Considering that a Driver (see the other thread) has just had a suspended jail sentence. Imagine being in a job where every single day the slightest trip up can put you in front of a magistrate. The pressure a Driver is under is palpable. This recent incident adds more pressure and can cause the panic that the Driver no doubt went through.

I also read a recent study that stated that shift work takes around 6yrs off your life. As well as being a high cause of Divorce I would say that money itself is barely recompense.

 

[Wolfie]

Do you really think it is the front line staff holding the travelling public to ransom as you put it or do you think it's the ludicrously overpaid meaningless high end directors and managers? Or how about the millions that are paid out to shareholders? A drivers pay rise will be a drop in the ocean compared to the savings that could be made higher up the chain!!!

Sadly incorrect. How many directors are there? How many drivers are there? A large amount of cash paid to a few probably amounts to less than a smaller sum paid to lots.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope it's the staff. It's always the staff
Always amazes me that management are never at fault for breakdowns in relations.

I for one never said this! Working in the public sector I know all about (Govt inspired) crap management. ...

 

[pemma]

I said they had other means on weekdays, maybe that is a bus, maybe it is the tram, maybe they can get a lift with a friend or colleague, or maybe they own a car and can drive for a day, perhaps there are other options.

I said transport on 'Christmas Saturdays' (plural) will be at bursting point.


What do you mean "the following Saturday"? The last FIVE Saturdays and Sundays before Christmas are rammed. It's not a case of one Saturday being really busy and all the rest really quiet, they are all very busy days.

I can't see the logic in your argument.

Metrolink and buses don't have enough spare capacity to carry Northern's passengers on a working day or on a Saturday. Many weekday journeys at peak time are essential, most weekend journeys are non-essential but the weekend ones generate the extra ticket sales for Northern.

Manchester doesn't exactly have loads of empty parking spaces on a weekday either.

Have you ever been on a Friday afternoon service out of Manchester? Many of them are at bursting point and yet you don't seem concerned about a planned strike on a Friday.

 

[BestWestern]

What was the content of the badly received HR letter?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't see the logic in your argument.

Metrolink and buses don't have enough spare capacity to carry Northern's passengers on a working day or on a Saturday. Many weekday journeys at peak time are essential, most weekend journeys are non-essential but the weekend ones generate the extra ticket sales for Northern.

Manchester doesn't exactly have loads of empty parking spaces on a weekday either.

Have you ever been on a Friday afternoon service out of Manchester? Many of them are at bursting point and yet you don't seem concerned about a planned strike on a Friday.

Neither option is particularly good, but a weekday strike is the lesser of two evils in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What was the content of the badly received HR letter?

The following picture was linked to in a previous thread.

http://imgur.com/jXzuJIj

 

[pemma]

The BBC have claimed non-one from the Associated Society of Locomotive Steam Enginemen and Firemen will talk to them about the vote.

Given Northern don't have any locomotives or steam engines in their fleet I don't know why any Northern employees would be ASLEF members.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree, just as long as all of the Northern fans on here don't come asking for even MORE subsidy!

The level of subsidy has been set for the Direct Award period. Although, the more Northern pay in salaries the higher the chance of them falling in to 'revenue support' like other operators including FGW, Southern, EMT and Virgin have done. Most years Northern have been on 'revenue share' i.e. where they have refunded subsidies to DfT - not many subsided TOCs ever achieve that. However, with the subsidy being reduced for the Direct Award period and Northern only getting a limited amount of extra carriages, compared to the number of extra passengers they are carrying the chance of them finishing up on 'revenue share' is now significantly lower.

 

[mtbox]

So Northern Rail should cave in and increase the current offer which is already more than twice the current rate of inflation? A further increase, if given, will put pressure on other costs to the business. If Northern Rail do accede to the ASLEF demands then expect further cost cutting elsewhere. More agency staff, more DOO, cleaning pared back, bare minimum maintenance... Not to forget that Northern Rail receive the highest subsidy per passenger mile, so Government will be watching closely to ensure Northern Rail are doing all in their power to provide value for that taxpayer contribution. A profligate pay award may not go down well with Govt.

In the current economic climate 2.7% seems very generous.

Does anyone know what percentage the drivers are after?

Maybe they could pay less out to shareholders?

Let me remind everyone, over a recent 3 year period, Northern paid out around £110 million to shareholders, which was actually nearly £10 million MORE than the profit they made over the same period!

How many new trains would that have bought!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Far too often it's the *comparison* of wage rates that's the problem. Staff seem to always think that they should have more money, totally regardless of whether it's a fully comparable role. Perhaps some should appreciate just how much they're already being paid before holding the travelling public to ransom.

Indeed. If Northern Rail drivers are so poorly paid, why, whenever there are vacancies, do hundreds of people apply? Some people don't appreciate how fortunate they are to be doing a job thousands of others would love.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. If Northern Rail drivers are so poorly paid, why, whenever there are vacancies, do hundreds of people apply? Some people don't appreciate how fortunate they are to be doing a job thousands of others would love.

The same reason why, when Costa issued a couple of vacancies (zero hours) for a cafe in Nottingham they got over a thousand applications.

There are at least thirty million reasons why Serco and Abellio should pay them properly. Although in these sorts of cases it's often not about the money, it's about the principle of the matter. You don't get high turnouts and high yes votes without some pretty serious dissatisfaction with management.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The level of subsidy has been set for the Direct Award period. Although, the more Northern pay in salaries the higher the chance of them falling in to 'revenue support' like other operators including FGW, Southern, EMT and Virgin have done. Most years Northern have been on 'revenue share' i.e. where they have refunded subsidies to DfT - not many subsided TOCs ever achieve that. However, with the subsidy being reduced for the Direct Award period and Northern only getting a limited amount of extra carriages, compared to the number of extra passengers they are carrying the chance of them finishing up on 'revenue share' is now significantly lower.

Of the TOCs you quote, I think only EMT is still on revenue support.
The others are on direct awards and Virgin for one, and possibly the others, is paying a premium.

 

[muz379]

So Northern Rail should cave in and increase the current offer which is already more than twice the current rate of inflation? A further increase, if given, will put pressure on other costs to the business. If Northern Rail do accede to the ASLEF demands then expect further cost cutting elsewhere. More agency staff, more DOO, cleaning pared back, bare minimum maintenance... Not to forget that Northern Rail receive the highest subsidy per passenger mile, so Government will be watching closely to ensure Northern Rail are doing all in their power to provide value for that taxpayer contribution. A profligate pay award may not go down well with Govt.

In the current economic climate 2.7% seems very generous.

Does anyone know what percentage the drivers are after?

how is 2.7% twice the current rate of inflation

Not to mention this is a negotiation over something that should have been settled in April , so taking into account the fact that RPI in April was 2.5% this is only 0.2% higher then inflation next year , and potentially a real term freeze of pay next year with there being a chance that staff could only end up with an inflation level payrise .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You don't get high turnouts and high yes votes without some pretty serious dissatisfaction with management.

This is a good point , my perception speaking with drivers at the depots that I come into contact with is that this ballot as well as being about pay has been used as a channel for any other dissatisfaction that drivers have with the franchise , be it poor rostering , poor diagrams of work , repetitive unit faults , other issues with the way things are being managed .

Regardless of the facts of the situation it is clear there is a level of dissatisfaction .

 

[Greenback]

I'd be very surprised if the issues were limited to the quoted pay rise. If it were me personally, and there no strings and no other issues I'd be happy with 2.7%.

But if there were strings attached, and I felt that I was owed something for a late offer, rostering problems or other things that management had messed up, then I expect I would feel differently.

 

[pemma]

I'd be very surprised if the issues were limited to the quoted pay rise. If it were me personally, and there no strings and no other issues I'd be happy with 2.7%.

But if there were strings attached, and I felt that I was owed something for a late offer, rostering problems or other things that management had messed up, then I expect I would feel differently.

There was a post in a previous thread making reference to the union wanting ex-ATN drivers getting 2.7% (the Northern offer) plus the benefits which ex-FNW drivers get which ex-ATN drivers don't get. Then for the ex-FNW to get the same salary as ex-ATN drivers with no withdrawal of benefits. If the salaries quoted on the ASLEF website are correct that would mean the union want a pay rise of over 9% for the ex-FNW drivers.

 

[Greenback]

Harmonisation is always a difficult issue. The unions, understandably want the best of everything to be brought in across the board, while the management, also understandably, want the worst of everything to be the standard.

 

[pemma]

Harmonisation is always a difficult issue. The unions, understandably want the best of everything to be brought in across the board, while the management, also understandably, want the worst of everything to be the standard.

What makes it even more difficult is in 2016 we might see crews being transferred between Northern, TPE and EMT as routes get divided differently between operators when the new franchises get awarded.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, that will exacerbate the situation, and is probably why ASLEF want it sorted now and management don't.

 

[WCMLaddict]

The following picture was linked to in a previous thread.

http://imgur.com/jXzuJIj

No, that's not the one.

The one I was referring to included warning that if ASLEF won't accept the deal Northern are not going to back pay anything, promised that if you act (note NOT VOTE but act) against the strike you will be given back pay before Christmas. It also alluded that NR always tried the best for drivers (first offer was 1.2% or 1.7%) and don;t really understand what is all the fuss about.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, that will exacerbate the situation, and is probably why ASLEF want it sorted now and management don't.

I'll bet! New facts on the ground for the next set of harmonisation. Frankly if ASLSF's demands are as stated by JCollins then no management will concede.

 

[9K43]

From my time on the railway, 35 years Management will be stuffed
If you have no drivers you have no trains. It will not be long before the bosses will be creeping back with all the drivers want, and the HR Man who wrote the letter will be getting marching orders.

 

[Wolfie]

From my time on the railway, 35 years Management will be stuffed
If you have no drivers you have no trains. It will not be long before the bosses will be creeping back with all the drivers want, and the HR Man who wrote the letter will be getting marching orders.

Really? The same Northern that gets 50p a mile subsidy? Methinks 'Call me' Dave and Gideon might have something to say about that. Clue Northern managers spines may get a Central Govt stiffening!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dave would like nothing better than ASLEF as his NUM!

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you really think it is the front line staff holding the travelling public to ransom as you put it or do you think it's the ludicrously overpaid meaningless high end directors and managers? Or how about the millions that are paid out to shareholders? A drivers pay rise will be a drop in the ocean compared to the savings that could be made higher up the chain!!!

.
Are you for real ?

Have you rather overlooked the simple fact that those same Shareholders are the very people who actually own the company ?. Would you be happy to lend some of your own money to a company that didn't pay you a fair return ?

 

[Mattmatt]

regardless of any subsidy paid to Northern, the staff including Guards etc only want to be paid the industry standards.... TPE got approx 3.5% rise, and they are in the same situation as Northern, (as in the last part of the franchise) Management have cited that they are constricted by the franchise ending and couldn't offer any more. Now before anyone starts to shout about other industries i.e Public sector, NHS, they do a different job to us and it's their union that needs to be stronger. As for the railway I will strike to get a fare pay deal that is on par with other TOC's.

My personal view is that all Railway workers should be on a national set of pay scales that rise with seniority (with added extras if deemed needed by the type of extra work you do) with an annual cost of living rise built in. that way guards, drivers, dispatch etc are all paid for the same role across the country. This also then reduces some of the retention problems where another TOC pays more and staff jump ship etc...

 

[pemma]

If you have no drivers you have no trains. It will not be long before the bosses will be creeping back with all the drivers want

Or the franchise will be terminated and services will be put under the control of Directly Operated Railways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

regardless of any subsidy paid to Northern, the staff including Guards etc only want to be paid the industry standards.... TPE got approx 3.5% rise

But the ex-ATN drivers are apparently on higher salaries than Merseyrail drivers and the same sort of level as LM drivers. So maybe the ex-ATN drivers are being paid the industry standard already and it's just TPE who are being paid above industry standard?

 

[mafeu]

Isn't the pay variance to be expected due to privatisation? Companies paying what they think the role is worth/can justify. This then creates a competitive job market. Theoretically then, the TOCs that get it right will have a driven workforce that drives revenue through great customer service and high standards.