Northern Rail: No ticket machine - accused of fare evasion

[Ferret]

I have to say that this kind of scenario sits very uncomfortably with me. I'm all for enforcement of the byelaws but as the other side of the deal, the railway as a whole should make it a lot easier to buy a ticket in the first place! There is no doubt in my mind that the OP here was not deliberately seeking to evade her fare, and has merely got caught up in the net so to speak, by an injudicious use of words when inerviewed.

I do wonder whether the OP should consider trying to contact the head of the Prosecution department by telephone, putting her case as she has here and in a way throwing herself on the mercy of Northern. Offer to pay the 80 quid if it's absolutely necessary, but at the same time explaining why she's reluctant to do so, and pointing out the lack of ticket facilities and the human nature thing of when being unfamiliar with something, seeking out another person to solve the problem. You'd still have to pay the fare owed though of course, if Northern were agreeable! It may work, it may not - and if it doesn't, well 80 quid is a lot better than what it could be.

LucyHelen - whatever you decide - I wish you well.

 

[LucyHelen]

Thanks for your advice everybody, if I do pay the £80 fine I will certainly pursue a complaint and have already talked to members of the press about this. I hugely object to these kind of 'bully' tactics and am not going to just chalk this up to experience. For the record, I did not say I would buy a single, I merely said I would pay on the return journey.

 

[Clip]

Thanks for your advice everybody, if I do pay the £80 fine I will certainly pursue a complaint and have already talked to members of the press about this. I hugely object to these kind of 'bully' tactics and am not going to just chalk this up to experience. For the record, I did not say I would buy a single, I merely said I would pay on the return journey.

Good luck with it all. Though again that bit i have highlighted, to me, is a stumbling block because just how would they knwo that you would keep to your word and not just get on the train back again knowing you didnt pay or get checked on the way in so why not risk it on the way back?

Also good luck with going to the press with it too - though im not really sure if Northern will really care as they will more then likely have a nice big press release already made up about 'fare evasion costing passengers more in fare rises' or something to counter any hard luck story about being caught without a ticket.


I dont mean to sound such a ******* about it all and im sure you did have good intentions and all that but thats just me, who hears many stories weekly about people who didnt buy their ticket and so on...

Sorry.

 

[185]

I have to say that this kind of scenario sits very uncomfortably with me. I'm all for enforcement of the byelaws but as the other side of the deal, the railway as a whole should make it a lot easier to buy a ticket in the first place! There is no doubt in my mind that the OP here was not deliberately seeking to evade her fare, and has merely got caught up in the net so to speak, by an injudicious use of words when inerviewed.

I do wonder whether the OP should consider trying to contact the head of the Prosecution department by telephone.

Agree. The last thing we want to do is to alienate the honest customers out there, once that support goes, all hell breaks out. There are far too many 'fair weather' staff checking tickets, who will let the hoodies and chavs past, and pick on the easy targets who have often done little or nothing wrong.

Worth a letter to Phil Cook, head of prosecutions. Nice bloke IMO.

 

[Ferret]

Thanks for your advice everybody, if I do pay the £80 fine I will certainly pursue a complaint and have already talked to members of the press about this. I hugely object to these kind of 'bully' tactics and am not going to just chalk this up to experience. For the record, I did not say I would buy a single, I merely said I would pay on the return journey.

Like I say, I wish you luck. Could you please let us know what the outcome is - I spend far too much of my professional life dealing with faredodgers (I have a tree-worth of witness statements I need to sign tomorrow) but I really don't think you deserve the treatment that will be given to the ones I've caught!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've picked out what I think Northern would be looking at, assuming the same information was given to Northern as was posted here. It is not meant as an attack on the Op or Northern and if there is something I have missed then I apologise in advance.

If indeed the op had no opportunity to buy before reaching the station (I make no assumptions about the op or the list of events), the chap at Glossop may have seen the op walk past the ticket office to the machine, then go from the machine to him. During his interview the op stated if the staff member wasn't there they'd pay on the return journey, this despite the op having just walked away from a ticket machine. To be honest, it doesn't look good.

I think the bits below would also have been key in Northern's decision.

....I would in any case have paid on the return journey and it is almost exactly the same price.

....The difference in price is 10 pence. And I said that I would have taken this option only if there was no opportunity at all to buy a return ticket from my destination

....For the record, I did not say I would buy a single, I merely said I would pay on the return journey.

I've highlighted two bits I think are especially relevant. That looks to me like the op would only have bought the single ticket to get back and that does also not look good.

Now I don't know what the staff member reported or if what is written here is what the op told Northern, but on the basis of what is here I'd say paying the £80 is the cheapest and best course of action.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Given that other TOCs are now implementing software changes to allow the purchase of tickets with different origin stations than the location of the machine, Northern really ought to do this as they have so many unmanned stations without any machines.

If this had been the case, the OP wouldn't have had a problem.

Of course, the reason Northern don't do it, is that everyone (they will presume) would buy a ticket for a "one stop" trip rather than the actual trip they have made. Presumably this is what they think customers do at the ticket office in any case, though, so I'm not sure how it makes things any worse to offer this option at the machine? (Apart from a belief people won't feel as bad about "lying to a machine" as to an individual?)

 

[rdwarr]

There dies seem to be an assumption that the OP would have bought a single ticket for the return leg rather than pay the extra 10p for the return. I can't recall her ever saying that and the impression I got was:
"As the difference between the single and the return is only 10p there is no incentive just to pay for the single".
10p is a small price to pay to demonstrate honesty.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There dies seem to be an assumption that the OP would have bought a single ticket for the return leg rather than pay the extra 10p for the return. I can't recall her ever saying that and the impression I got was:
"As the difference between the single and the return is only 10p there is no incentive just to pay for the single".
10p is a small price to pay to demonstrate honesty.

The first quote in HHF's post implies heavily that she would have only bought a single. It would not be too hard for a brief to twist it even further.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

As the OP was suggesting there was no ticket office, and the only way to buy a ticket for the return trip would be from the machine, and she's already said she couldn't buy the correct return ticket from the machine, it is intuitive that she meant she would just buy a single. And she's given the impression that she thinks "it's only 10p less so that doesn't matter", which of course it does.

At risk of being flamed again, she could have bought the "wrong way around" return from the machine, paid exactly the correct fare in monetary terms, and totally eliminated the risk of challenge by the RPI because the use of the return leg first is perfectly allowed.

She might then have had a theoretical risk of challenge when using the outbound leg second (because that is officially not allowed unless holding an unused return ticket), but that risk is I believe infinitessimally small and not worth worrying about.

 

[pemma]

because the use of the return leg first is perfectly allowed.

No it's not and on some routes you could be accused of trying to get around peak restrictions by doing that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No it's not and on some routes you could be accused of trying to get around peak restrictions by doing that.

The terms of return tickets are that the outward portion is only valid with an unused return portion. In some cases people have used return portions, without using the outward portion, to get around time restrictions, this is not the same thing.

 

[b0b]

I think the one thing to come out of this - if you ask an RPI where to buy the ticket you couldn't buy until that point, make sure the only thing you say is "I wish to buy a ticket for my journey, please direct me to where I can buy a ticket" and nothing else. Looks like the implicit admission she might have only bought a single is going to cost 80 quid which is unfortunate.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

The terms of return tickets are that the outward portion is only valid with an unused return portion. In some cases people have used return portions, without using the outward portion, to get around time restrictions, this is not the same thing.

Or where there are fares missing from the fares structure - e.g. I use the return portion (only) of tickets where there is no equivalent super offpeak single fare in the return direction, and this is totally legitimate. (Sometimes this makes sense when in one direction a "through" Advance ticket is cheap, but in the other direction "half an SRR" plus an Advance from London is cheaper than a through Advance ticket.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it's not and on some routes you could be accused of trying to get around peak restrictions by doing that.

I know what you mean, but there is no prima facie requirement to have used the outward portion.

I agree that if you use the return portion of an offpeak day return, one minute after the earliest time you could have used the outbound portion*, eyebrows might be raised, but I'm not sure that there is consensus on this forum that this is prohibited.

* or even before the outbound portion could have been used, in cases where the return portion has no peak restriction.

 

[pemma]

I know what you mean, but there is no prima facie requirement to have used the outward portion.

I agree that if you use the return portion of an offpeak day return, one minute after the earliest time you could have used the outbound portion*, eyebrows might be raised, but I'm not sure that there is consensus on this forum that this is prohibited.

* or even before the outbound portion could have been used, in cases where the return portion has no peak restriction.

Term 17 of NRCoC "A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

You can buy a return ticket and only use one portion but in this case a return journey was made:
Broadbottom-Glossop
Glossop-Broadbottom

If the OP had purchased a Glossop to Broadbottom return ticket and shown the return part to the G4S inspector then he could have taken that off her as a used ticket and she would have had an outward part of a Glossop to Broadbottom return without an unused return part, so it would be technically invalid.

Using it to get around peak restrictions is really outside the scope of this thread but I mentioned it because it's likely the reason why the requirement exists.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In a situation where the options are (1) buy a ticket for the wrong direction or (2) don't buy a ticket, I'm sure the TOC would rather the first. That said, in this case there was another option, it's just the op claims not to have seen it.

 

[pemma]

In a situation where the options are (1) buy a ticket for the wrong direction or (2) don't buy a ticket, I'm sure the TOC would rather the first. That said, in this case there was another option, it's just the op claims not to have seen it.

It should also be noted that the Northern managed stations which have ticket machines and no ticket office or ticket offices with limited hours don't have machines which accept cash, so purchasing at the ticket machine isn't an option for every passenger.

Also in defence of the OP even if she had seen the ticket office she won't necessarily know that the the ticket office could issue tickets starting from Broadbottom any more than the machine does.

Out of every train I've ever been on I've only ever heard an announcement once telling passengers without a ticket that they can buy their usual ticket at the destination station due to the conductor not being able to get through and that was a packed Sprinter arriving at Leeds station. Maybe TOCs need to inform the passengers better.

 

[b0b]

Maybe TOCs need to inform the passengers better.

Why? in this situation, they've turned a 1.70 fare into 80; so where's the incentive to install expensive ticketing machines, or have open offices, or even crack down on persistent fare evasion, when they can get an "unfortunate mistake" to pay the fares of over 40 others.

 

[SussexMan]

She might then have had a theoretical risk of challenge when using the outbound leg second (because that is officially not allowed unless holding an unused return ticket), but that risk is I believe infinitessimally small and not worth worrying about.

No!!!! Don't say that because the outbound portion was to cover her initial journey, not a third journey!

 

[pemma]

Why? in this situation, they've turned a 1.70 fare into 80; so where's the incentive to install expensive ticketing machines, or have open offices, or even crack down on persistent fare evasion, when they can get an "unfortunate mistake" to pay the fares of over 40 others.

Really?

That assumes:
1. The revenue protection staff work for free.
2. All fare evaders are in PTE areas and make the cheapest journeys available at off-peak times. An equivalent fare on my local Northern service for a 10 minute off-peak journey is £4.20 in one direction and £5.20 in the other.
3. Fare evaders accept the Northern out of court settlement and it doesn't go to court. If it does Northern may lose and it'll cost them thousands of pounds - which has happened before - see article here: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...after-11-month-legal-battle-costing-thousands

 

[island]

Out of every train I've ever been on I've only ever heard an announcement once telling passengers without a ticket that they can buy their usual ticket at the destination station due to the conductor not being able to get through and that was a packed Sprinter arriving at Leeds station.

...which is gated!

 

[bb21]

No!!!! Don't say that because the outbound portion was to cover her initial journey, not a third journey!

I agree. In amongst much sound advice MarkyMarkD has given in this thread, I really do not think that suggesting the OP should be using the outbound portion after the return journey has been completed is a wise thing to do at all.

 

[yorkie]

No!!!! Don't say that because the outbound portion was to cover her initial journey, not a third journey!

I think you misunderstood! MarkyMarkD was not suggesting that. He was suggesting buying a ticket from Glossop to Broadbottom from the machines at Glossop. This would be the correct fare. However the "rtn" portion is the portion that would have effectively been used for the outward journey.

I think that this is a question I'd put to Northern (the letter would need to be quite precise and carefully worded) before considering whether or not this suggestion is a feasible/acceptable solution.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I would think that clarifying this issue with Northern* would be very helpful indeed. It is Northern's fault that they have chosen to program their ticket machines so it is impossible to buy the correct ticket. There is a very simple solution, which is permitting customers to buy tickets "the wrong way round" and use the tickets in the wrong order, and in most cases the fare will be correct.

It may lead to problems with validity of tickets at the right times - I don't know enough about Northern's fares to say if it does or not.

And to clarify, I've never said that it is a good idea to buy tickets the wrong way round; but I have suggested that it is the pragmatic thing to do if there is no alternative - as the OP believed there was not because she couldn't find the ticket office.

I also cannot believe for the life of me that Northern would prosecute a passenger for paying the right fare, for tickets which they used the "wrong way round", where there was no alternative - because if they did so, they might as well tell customers to simply not pay their fare on arrival at their destination, unmanned, station which has a ticket machine because they couldn't be bothered to program their machines to accommodate the situation they have caused.

And then to buy a single ticket for the return journey - exactly as the OP implied she would have done, in the absence of any altnernative.

* Indeed, with ATOC as the issue is not restricted to Northern but to any operator with (sometimes) unmanned stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that this is a question I'd put to Northern (the letter would need to be quite precise and carefully worded) before considering whether or not this suggestion is a feasible/acceptable solution. I'd not ask the issue of identifying the location of a ticket office in that letter, that would be for a separate letter I think.

Indeed, it would be interesting if one of our "more knowledgeable" forum members were to send such a letter to Northern that covered all the relevant points of conflict, then to come back to this thread with the answers that Northern have provided to each of these points.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Preferably someone knowledgeable who lives in the vicinity of a Northern station. It wouldn't look very sensible coming from the deep South East of England!

 

[LucyHelen]

Thanks again everybody, I will write to Phil Cook as suggested and I hope I can get this resolved. Does anybody have an email, postal address that I can contact him on directly? Please PM me if so. And thanks to everybody who has taken an interest in this situation - I really hope to get this sorted out because I was in no way trying to avoid paying my fare and had approached the guy because I thought he could sell me the right ticket, as they do at Piccadilly. When I left the train the ticket machine and blockade were visible, but I managed to miss the ticket office as I was accustomed to it being somewhere else - why would I walk straight towards a blockade to buy a ticket and not just buy one at the ticket office if I had seen it? Doesn't make sense. For the record I bought the ticket straight away afterwards, paying the full price. I sent a photocopy of this ticket to Northern.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Thanks for keeping us informed, LH. It's so annoying when people swoop in, ask questions, take the advice (or even ignore it!) and never come back to update us.

 

[junglejames]

I think if I had wanted to pay my fare, and been unable to do so at my origin station or on the train, I'd have looked quite hard for the ticket office upon arrival, not walked past one which was immediately to my left hand side en route from platform to ticket machine (and then station exit).

Question for you then. You get off the train, and cant see the ticket office. It isnt where it always used to be. You see a ticket machine and go to it, but obviously, that wasnt letting you buy the ticket from the origin station. You then spot a member of staff. What do you do? Are you honestly telling me you wouldnt go up to him?
In 99.9% of cases, you would go and ask him for a ticket, or ask him where to buy a ticket. Remember, the ticket office couldnt be seen in the usual place. So its quite easy to assume it has closed, and the ticket machine is the only thing left.

Now, taking things literally, Northern do have a case, but only because the law stinks in this regard, and the best advice is probably to pay the £80 then complain.
In reality though, both the RPI and Northern stink even more than the law. It is bordering on being a legalised version of fraud. Its not much worse than upping the cost of the normal ticket to £80. It is absolutely disgusting.

If someone doesnt see a ticket office, but see's a member of staff, they will always head to that member of staff. Its natural. Members of staff are seen as people that can help. But when you ask certain members of staff for help, they decide a court appearance is warranted? Please.
Passenger: "Sir, could I ask you a question?"
Member of staff: "Hold on, let me caution you and send you to court, then you can ask"
OK, thats exagerated, but in reality, thats exactly what happened. A court appearance or an £80 fine just for asking for a ticket.
The only thing this does, is make some people very wary of all members of staff. Some people will probably never travel by train again.

Now I realise actual fare evaders would have done exactly the same, and i realise thats why the RPI has done what he has, but it stinks still. People are innocent until proven guilty. This RPI has treated the woman as guilty from the start.
It also goes against what all normal people would do. Spot a member of staff before seeing a ticket office, and you ask them for a ticket. Its normal. But seemingly the law, and some RPIs, now allow for everyday, innocent and normal actions, to be against the law.

As I said before though, unfortunately the best advice may be to pay the £80 for now, because this law is not on the side of innocent people. Make sure you then complain to Northern, and if they dont refund the £80, kick up a massive stink. Get all local press involved, and get onto the MP. Pay up first though before doing that.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Spot a member of staff before seeing a ticket office, and you ask them for a ticket. Its normal. But seemingly the law, and some RPIs, now allow for everyday, innocent and normal actions, to be against the law.

Fair enough, if that's what happened. But in this case, it was "Walk past the open ticket office, which happens to be in a different place to where it used to be, attempt to buy a ticket at the ticket machine and give up on that, then walk to the station exit and THEN finally ask a member of staff to buy a ticket".

Because the photos on National Rail Enquiries are out of date, I can't comment on how obvious the new ticket office is. The OP stated that it was not visible as she left the train. Clearly the Northern Rail employee wasn't particularly convinced.