Northern Rail: No ticket machine - accused of fare evasion

[junglejames]

If it does Northern may lose and it'll cost them thousands of pounds - which has happened before - see article here: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...after-11-month-legal-battle-costing-thousands

OK, taking it all the way to court was silly, but out of all the stories ive heard, thats about the only one which I have no argument with.
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Fair enough, if that's what happened. But in this case, it was "Walk past the open ticket office, which happens to be in a different place to where it used to be, attempt to buy a ticket at the ticket machine and give up on that, then walk to the station exit and THEN finally ask a member of staff to buy a ticket".

Because the photos on National Rail Enquiries are out of date, I can't comment on how obvious the new ticket office is. The OP stated that it was not visible as she left the train. Clearly the Northern Rail employee wasn't particularly convinced.

No, if you read what she has written. She spotted the member of staff at the same time as the machine, and never saw the ticket office (its not a blatant case of walking past a ticket office, as it hadnt been seen). The machine never offered what she wanted, so she went to the member of staff whom she had spotted before. Are you a politician by any chance? I am massively impressed by how you bent what she said to suit a specific purpose. No, honestly, I am.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

This is a pretty small, narrow, station from what I can see. And the ticket office is on the left hand side, as you walk out of the single platform.

Whilst the OP says it couldn't be seen, I find that hard to understand as it's on the main passageway on the way out of the station.

So, honestly, it is quite accurate to say "walked past the open ticket office".

If you were used to buying tickets at the destination from a member of staff - because that is Northern's practice at other stations - why would you go to the machine at all?

---

No, I'm not a politician and I have no axe to grind. My only perspective on this thread is that I can very well see why the Northern member of staff felt that he was in the right with his actions, as the OP's behaviour was at least marginally suspicious, and she dug herself in deeper with her answers to the questions asked.

But if I was the OP, and innocent of any intent to avoid paying the correct fare, I would most certainly be appealing and setting forth my side of the story in a robust way with Northern's prosecution/complaints teams, either before or after paying the £80 for the sake of an easy life and no risk of prosecution.

 

[pemma]

OK, taking it all the way to court was silly, but out of all the stories ive heard, thats about the only one which I have no argument with.

There's two probable reasons why the case failed:

1. When questioned he told the revenue staff that he in fact boarded a station earlier and offered to pay the difference, they refused to take his payment.

2. Northern at one stage were handing out 'proof of boarding tickets' at certain unstaffed stations so if someone, for instance, travelled from Marple but alighted at Piccadilly with no ticket saying they boarded at Ashburys (much closer to Piccadilly) they would have been refused an Ashburys ticket without showing a 'proof of boarding ticket.' There is of course no legal requirement to keep hold of a 'proof of boarding ticket' and even a genuine fare evader could easily have been let off if represented by a good solicitor.

I suspect both of the above applied here, which is why the case was not concluded quickly and why Northern lost the case with thousands of pounds in legal fees to pay.
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This is a pretty small, narrow, station from what I can see. And the ticket office is on the left hand side, as you walk out of the single platform.

Whilst the OP says it couldn't be seen, I find that hard to understand as it's on the main passageway on the way out of the station.

Northern ticket office staff aren't always sitting next to the ticket window, especially after a train has just gone. The ticket person may have just gone to the toilet, gone to make a brew, gone to assist a disabled passenger who's just alighted at the station etc. A window in a station with an office behind it doesn't have to be a ticket office, especially so many station buildings have been let out as offices.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....A window in a station with an office behind it doesn't have to be a ticket office, especially so many station buildings have been let out as offices.

It's a bit difficult to argue that when there is a sign saying "Ticket office" above the window.

 

[MikeWh]

This is a pretty small, narrow, station from what I can see. And the ticket office is on the left hand side, as you walk out of the single platform.

Whilst the OP says it couldn't be seen, I find that hard to understand as it's on the main passageway on the way out of the station.

So, honestly, it is quite accurate to say "walked past the open ticket office".

If you were used to buying tickets at the destination from a member of staff - because that is Northern's practice at other stations - why would you go to the machine at all?

The OP is used to having to buy tickets from G4S on the platform at Manchester. Having not managed to get a ticket before arrival at Glossop they were pretty focussed about finding a way to get one, so much so that on seeing the ticket machine they made a beeline for that. They were not expecting to pass the ticket office as it had moved since their last visit and as it is set in an alcove off the main passageway and their focus was already on the more visible machine, they did not notice what else they were passing. When the machine proved useless they then looked around and saw someone who looked like the ticket sellers at Manchester and assumed that that is how they should get the ticket.

 

[pemma]

It's a bit difficult to argue that when there is a sign saying "Ticket office" above the window.

At a lot of stations there is no sign. I don't know on the exact circumstances of Glossop but I'm sure my other point applies that there's no guarantee there was someone sitting next to the window at the time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Granted, but in this case I believe there is a sign.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Not exactly the most well disguised ticket office: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p288513101/h12a0bd85#h12a0bd85

 

[MikeWh]

Not exactly the most well disguised ticket office: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p288513101/h12a0bd85#h12a0bd85

Note the wall to the left of the staff door. This shows that it is set back from the main pathway. If you have already seen a ticket machine (actually in the main pathway and on the opposite side) which you are focussed on getting to you are not going to be paying close attention to windows set back from the path on the opposite side.

Please tell me you can understand this scenario.

 

[table38]

Well as it's more or less on my patch, I thought I'd go take a look in true Crimewatch Reconstruction style.

So I'm off the train heading towards the exit:

Need to get a ticket... Oh look, a ticket machine, that'll do:

Oh noes, it won't sell me a return from Broadbottom

Well, behind me is the old ticket window... looks like that's been a victim of the cuts too.

Oh well, I'll just go and ask that nice guy stood by the door then!

So viewers, did you spot the Ticket Office then? Or maybe a sign pointing to the ticket office?

Here's a wobbly video to show there was no chicanery:

[youtube]jTDNs3tyJVE[/youtube]

 

[MikeWh]

Thank you table38, that confirms my thoughts from 200 miles away perfectly.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

table38 m8 you can not miss it! a camera does not do it any credit whatsoever (you point a camera at anything it will not include a persons natural look of the surrounding area) it really is that obvious, I have already said I personally feel the OP has been harshly treated, as I don't have the full facts I cannot comment further (for obvious reasons) but seriously you can not miss the window its that bloomin big lol.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Yes, Mike, I can see your point. And thanks so much, table38, for posting the video.

 

[table38]

table38 m8 you can not miss it! a camera does not do it any credit whatsoever (you point a camera at anything it will not include a persons natural look of the surrounding area) it really is that obvious, I have already said I personally feel the OP has been harshly treated, as I don't have the full facts I cannot comment further (for obvious reasons) but seriously you can not miss the window its that bloomin big lol.

Actually you could miss it quite easily if your attention was focussed on the ticket machine and/or the old ticket window as the exit is narrow and the new ticket office is set well back.

The situation could easily be solved by suspending a sign pointing to it.

Also, if we are to believe the lady in question had to pay a PF for "walking past an open ticket office", she'd already done that before she got to the ticket machine.

Now here's a question... what was I supposed to do this evening, as the ticket office was closed when I got there at ~7:30pm. Dare I leave the station and risk a G4S guy chasing me down the street?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

you would need Tunnel vision to miss it I know G4s are total muppets who are hated by Passengers and Traincrew alike (not only do they cause alot of ticketless travel, so many wrong tickets lol, they can be rude with zero knowledg)e, some are very good their job, but sadly only some. I have had to tell them to get off my train more than once when they have been over zealous. If the OP writes a letter explaining the circumstances I am sure she will be fine, the sooner G4s are history and properly trained staFF man barriers incidents like this wil always happen

 

[LucyHelen]

Thanks Table38, for posting those pics and vid which show it is not so hard to miss the ticket office. To those who can't believe I didn't spot it, the ticket office is indeed impossible to miss once you know it is there, I grant you. I was not expecting to see it there and was looking at the machine on the other side of the station, and y it is not so hard to miss if you are looking to the other side. I may have been distracted and absent minded but was genuinely trying to buy a ticket.
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I did manage to miss it! It is blindingly obvious once you know it's there, but not so hard to miss when you're looking in the other direction, at the immediately visible ticket machine. Maybe relocate this so that on arrival you see the ticket office before the machine? Just a thought but it could avoid this type of situation. Actually, having taken the train to Glossop since the barrier incident,I notice that the now have a member of staff standing to the side of the ticket office, clearly indicating where departing passengers should be paying. Perhaps this suggests I was not alone in my mistake?

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I think that the suggestion of a hanging sign pointing from the "corridor" to the ticket office would suffice very well indeed.

 

[table38]

Even a sign on the abandoned original ticket window indicating the existence of a new ticket office (which certainly isn't visible from there) would have been helpful.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Even a sign on the abandoned original ticket window indicating the existence of a new ticket office (which certainly isn't visible from there) would have been helpful.

That is such a simple, obvious, inexpensive, and constructive suggestion!

I'm beginning to think that the failure to do so might be a persuasive defence in itself (notwithstanding any other arguments).

A handwritten note on the back of an obsolete fax held up on the 'old' window with sticky tape would have been appropriate!
Without it, the OP is on strong grounds to appeal and to do so sucessfully (though my earlier advice to pay the £80 and NOT to appeal, was bassed on the OP's initial declaration of having no time, and an aversion to stress, to commit to this matter - a belief which has been slightly overtaken by the OP's time available to communicate on here!).

 

[table38]

I'm trying to think of another small station where the ticket office isn't about the first thing you see when you walk in the main entrance.

(Discounting large stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, stations with multiple entrance/exits (like, err, Manchester Piccadilly), or stations with no Ticket Office, etc. Oh and those Merseyrail stations where the Ticket Office is disguised as a shop)

Given we are all human, and we all make mistakes, I'm also trying to think of another organisation which exploits this and charges you £80

 

[MarkyMarkD]

It's not hard to think of such an organisation ... it's called Excel Parking and operates paid-for car parks with very small print signs saying that it's necessary to Pay and Display. It was on Watchdog a week or so ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2012/04/excel_parking.html

 

[table38]

Perhaps I should go back and edit that last post of mine and insert the word "reputable" in it somewhere

Actually I can just imagine Anne Robinson interviewing the Chairman of G4S Northern:

Anne (for it is she): "Why didn't your inspector just direct the passenger back to the new Ticket Office"
Northern: "Let me just put this in context, we have a million passengers a day and fare evasion means that everyone else pays more"
Anne: "But Mrs OP wasn't trying to evade her fare, she had already tried to buy a ticket from the machine, discovered what she thought to be the ticket office was closed, and quite sensibly went to a member of your staff for help"
Northern: "Well, I er... million passengers... fare evasion... bloody G4S... big problem..."
Anne: "I'll have to cut you off as we have run out of time. Now over to that guy who used to do the sport on Breakfast TV."​

-- Edit --

Righto, I've just had a brilliant idea for the OP:

1. Write a cheque for £80, write "without prejudice" on the cheque somewhere and post it off.
2. Sell your story to the Daily Mail for £200. I suggest the (inaccurate) headline: "Woman fined £80 for asking rail staff where she can buy a ticket"

 

[TUC]

There was a similar issue to this a few months ago and it makes me so angry. Surely the only issue in reality that should matter to Northern Rail and their staff is that the passenger made an effort to pay the fare and made their difficulty known to a member of staff when at the arrival station.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's the age old question of how you differentiate a "genuine passenger" from a "fare evader". Fare evaders will do their best to come across as a "genuine passenger" if they believe they will be caught travelling without a ticket.

 

[table38]

I suppose the answer to that is, are you the sort of company who would rather let a few evaders slip through the net (who you will probably catch next time anyway) rather than risk accusing genuine customers of evasion?

Perhaps it depends on how much you value your customers, and how easily your customers can take their custom elsewhere

G4S aren't gong to care, they aren't their customers; and presumably G4S want to pass lots of impressive stats back to Northern in order to justify their existence and get their contract renewed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I suppose the answer to that is, are you the sort of company who would rather let a few evaders slip through the net (who you will probably catch next time anyway) rather than risk accusing genuine customers of evasion?....

I guess that depends on how you quantify 'a few evaders'. Take a random selection of 100 people from across the country who have reached their destination without having had the opportunity to buy a ticket. If they were given the choice of buying a ticket or not, how many of them do you think would pay for their journey?

 

[table38]

I guess that depends on how you quantify 'a few evaders'. Take a random selection of 100 people from across the country who have reached their destination without having had the opportunity to buy a ticket. If they were given the choice of buying a ticket or not, how many of them do you think would pay for their journey?

Hypothetically, I suppose around the same number of people who would walk out of Tesco without paying if they didn't have anyone on the tills, and the self-scan wouldn't let them pay for what they had bought?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hypothetically, I suppose around the same number of people who would walk out of Tesco without paying if they didn't have anyone on the tills, and the self-scan wouldn't let them pay for what they had bought?

I don't think you quite understood what I said. If they were given the choice, in other words, if there IS a machine and/or staff to issue tickets but no-one is going to stop them walking out without paying, how many would choose to pay?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Any business which operates what is basically an 'honesty box' system (which is what ticket machines pretty much are) in our modern overcrowded world is bound to find that a large percentage of people (from the top down-my ducks need a proper house!) are not quite as honest as they should be.

 

[table38]

I don't think you quite understood what I said. If they were given the choice, in other words, if there IS a machine and/or staff to issue tickets but no-one is going to stop them walking out without paying, how many would choose to pay?

Dunno, I suggest the majority would. But if we are asking each other hypothetical questions, here's one for you.

How many genuine fare evaders do you think would walk up to a member of staff and ask where they can pay?