• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Rail: No ticket machine - accused of fare evasion

Status
Not open for further replies.

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
It is a "difficult" analogy I agree... I'm sure I can come up with something...

Oh, I know, what if the self scan's weren't taking cash - which does happen sometimes!

So I go to the security guard on the door. Does he:

(a) direct me to the cigarette counter to pay?
(b) ask me some hypothetical question about what would I have done if he hadn't been there and charge me £80?

:)

Here you are: 11Pm at night. No proper tills open and no customer service counter. Just a security guard and a novice employee supervising the self scan.

An item comes up at the wrong price. The customer is asked to pay the higher price and bring their receipt into store next time.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,459
Thus, perhaps G4S shouldn't have been positioned where they were if that was what they were tying to do. While a fare evader might try the same trick (asking to buy a ticket now they know there's no way out), you can't know the difference. In fact, if a fare evader knew not to incriminate themselves (by basically lying) they'd likely get away with it. I do hope G4S aren't simply trying to catch people out to get easy prosecutions.

Ah ... G4S. Can't abide them! If they ask me for tickets I ask them for proof that they have the right to ask for my ticket - after all, they're not rail staff.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,803
Location
Redcar
They are authorised to do so by the bylaws.

Yes but the byelaws do make mention of handing over a ticket to an authorized person when requested so I don't see an issue with asking a member of G4S staff to prove that they are authorized to check tickets.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Yes but the byelaws do make mention of handing over a ticket to an authorized person when requested so I don't see an issue with asking a member of G4S staff to prove that they are authorized to check tickets.

True, but my point was more that I'd hate to have someone reading this forum and coming to the conclusion that because they were employed by G4S that they did not have the authority to demand to see tickets. My point was merely to correct that.

I know we here lots of stories about G4S (I haven't come into contact with the rail side of things, but I do know a few stories about their PTS arm) but personally I don't think it's worth making everyone's life more difficult by demanding to see their ID despite knowing that they are authorised to check tickets (but they may not have the training to understand what's on the ticket!). It's rather like poking a low IQ lion with a stick. Sooner or later it will bite.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
On one occasion at Wigan Wallgate I walked past two G4S staff who were checking tickets as they were wearing black fleece jackets with small logos on the arms. Not only until I went back to the station did I actually see them and realise.
 

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
Interesting as 15 pages of hypothesis, spread over 10 days is, I noticed that the original poster had actually taken the same query onto other sites so, I wonder if LucyHelen has truly been helped by this thread and whether she has managed to resolve her issue with Northern and if so, how?
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
They are authorised to do so by the bylaws.

Not explicitly though - I don't believe the byelaws say "show ticket to a member of rail staff or G4S employee" do they?

FGW do/did use external security guards at Hayes & Harlington station - I would make sure they had some FGW ID before showing my ticket.

I'm amazed that the unions allow this.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Not explicitly though - I don't believe the byelaws say "show ticket to a member of rail staff or G4S employee" do they?

FGW do/did use external security guards at Hayes & Harlington station - I would make sure they had some FGW ID before showing my ticket.

I'm amazed that the unions allow this.
They don't need an FGW ID. The byelaws are not there to list every possible person that is defined as an authorised person. An authorised person therefore is defined as someone acting in the course of his duties who is an employee or agent of the operator, authorised by the operator or a constable acting in the execution of his duties. Clearly this covers what G4S do.



Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk
 

emorris

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
61
Location
Sheffield
Interesting as 15 pages of hypothesis, spread over 10 days is, I noticed that the original poster had actually taken the same query onto other sites so, I wonder if LucyHelen has truly been helped by this thread and whether she has managed to resolve her issue with Northern and if so, how?

One of the "features" of vBulletin is that by default you only receive one email when a new post arrives in a thread. If you just read the post in the email then delete it with out visiting the forum, you don't receive any more. I don't know whether this has happened in this case.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Not explicitly though - I don't believe the byelaws say "show ticket to a member of rail staff or G4S employee" do they?....

Not in those exact words, but they do require you to show a ticket upon request to G4S personnel who are doing the job they are employed to do.

Byelaws 17 and 18 (as applicable) state that "A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person".

The Byelaws defines an authorised person as "A person acting in the course of his duties who (a) is an employee or agent of an operator, or (b) any other person authorised by an operator, or (c) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway".
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I think the discussion has now drifted away from the OP's situation and that the thread has run its course.

If anyone wants to debate whether G4S staff (or those from an agency of a similar nature) have the authority to check tickets please start a separate thread.

@OP: Please come back and tell us how things worked out at the end if you could. Feel free to contact anyone from the forum team or drop us a PM.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top