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Northern Rail Sprinter, 170, 319 and 333 refresh/refurbishments

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northwichcat

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It doesn't seem new seats are planned

https://issuu.com/smithdavispress/docs/2016_april_____proudnorthern_-_page/11 (They are using the outdated solution of Adobe Flash!)

It mentions a deep clean, the recovering of seats, new floor coverings, repainting interior panels, full exterior repaints, wi-fi, accessible toilets, LED lighting, CIS, CCTV and Driver Advisory Systems.

It also mentions higher capacity interiors for 333s, further enhancements for the North East 158s and the formation of 16 x 3 car 150s.
 
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sprinterguy

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It's disappointing that more isn't stated to be planned to replace the hotch-potch of different seating types fitted across Northern's 150 fleet, many of which retain the same cramped 3+2 seating they were built with. What those units really need is a comprehensive internal refurbishment to bring them up to 21st century standards, and the same could be applied to the similarly seated class 319 units.

A complete refurbishment of the class 155/156/158 fleet to bring them all up to a similar standard wouldn't go amiss either, although what the 158s primarily need is a good clean and replacement of worn out carpets, so at least they'll be getting that.
 

47802

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Doesn't go far enough in my view, I guess we will see what further enhancements the connect 158's have but should apply to all 158's really.

I wouldn't really call it 'interiors like new' more like a glorified typical Northern Refresh, I would have expected something like the Arriva Wales 158 refurb.
 
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northwichcat

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It's disappointing that more isn't stated to be planned to replace the hotch-potch of different seating types fitted across Northern's 150 fleet, many of which retain the same cramped 3+2 seating they were built with. What those units really need is a comprehensive internal refurbishment to bring them up to 21st century standards, and the same could be applied to the similarly seated class 319 units.

A complete refurbishment of the class 155/156/158 fleet to bring them all up to a similar standard wouldn't go amiss either, although what the 158s primarily need is a good clean and replacement of worn out carpets, so at least they'll be getting that.

The ex-FNW 150s could probably be refurbished so that they have seating arrangements like the ATW and ex-Wessex sets fairly easily - they already have the same type of seats, they just need 3+2 changed to 2+2, some armrests fitting and some seat back tables fitted in to the slots that already exist for them.

I do find it strange that the franchise requirement for 'like new' interiors can include the original 150/319 style seating. They may be a more modern style than Pacers with bus seating but that doesn't exactly mean much.
 

sprinterguy

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I do find it strange that the franchise requirement for 'like new' interiors can include the original 150/319 style seating. They may be a more modern style than Pacers with bus seating but that doesn't exactly mean much.
In a number of ways I think that the bus benches are superior to the 3+2 Ashbourne seating: There's more open space underneath them (handy for cleaning and stowing luggage), they feel like they're higher off the floor and they're flexible in that they can be used in a 3+2 arrangement on busy trains but also act as roomier 2+1 seating on quieter services.

As such, that the 3+2 Ashbourne seating can still be deemed suitable thirty years down the line is surprising.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ex-FNW 150s could probably be refurbished so that they have seating arrangements like the ATW and ex-Wessex sets fairly easily - they already have the same type of seats, they just need 3+2 changed to 2+2, some armrests fitting and some seat back tables fitted in to the slots that already exist for them.
Yeah, the ex-FNW sets would easily require the least work to bring them up to standard. It's just as well that First North Western went to the effort of carrying out a full refurbishment on them, given the lack of inertia in the fifteen years since.
 
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northwichcat

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Yeah, the ex-FNW sets would easily require the least work to bring them up to standard. It's just as well that First North Western went to the effort of carrying out a full refurbishment on them.

Although strangely they are the only 150s which retain the original door controls, which will need replacing before 2020.
 

northwichcat

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Given the 333s are already 3+2, with the airline seats already pretty cramped, I really don't like the sound of this one...

I've heard someone say before the centre cars are keeping the same arrangement but the driving cars are getting an arrangement like the SWT 455s to increase the total capacity (seating+standing.)
 

northwichcat

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There are 4466 standard class seats being removed from the class 185s which TPE are retaining (and being replaced by new seats) surely Northern could have used these as a cheap option for providing modern seating on some of their Sprinters. If the other 185s get the same style of refurbishment and LM decide to refurbish some 350s for longer distance services (an option mooted in the next franchise consultation) then they'll be lots more Desiro seating up for grabs.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It is certainly not what I was expecting - something more like the Inverness/ScotRail Scenic refurb is what is needed to be of a suitable quality for Northern Connect.

As for 150s, used Desiro 2+2 seats might well be a good choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given the 333s are already 3+2, with the airline seats already pretty cramped, I really don't like the sound of this one...

I think they may be considering longitudinal or narrow 2+2 seating, both of which increase the standing capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yeah, the ex-FNW sets would easily require the least work to bring them up to standard. It's just as well that First North Western went to the effort of carrying out a full refurbishment on them, given the lack of inertia in the fifteen years since.

They did, but sadly that didn't extend to changing the layout - the 150/2s still have the impossibly tight 3+2 airline seat layout. I think solving that would require moving of some underseat equipment, but I think that would be money very well spent to move to a layout more like that of ATW.]

I really think 3+2 has had its day. 2+2 but with 3+2 seat width, or longitudinal seating, are both better at providing peak (standing) capacity and are also more comfortable off-peak.
 
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sprinterguy

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There are 4466 standard class seats being removed from the class 185s which TPE are retaining (and being replaced by new seats) surely Northern could have used these as a cheap option for providing modern seating on some of their Sprinters. If the other 185s get the same style of refurbishment and LM decide to refurbish some 350s for longer distance services (an option mooted in the next franchise consultation) then they'll be lots more Desiro seating up for grabs.
I hadn't realised that the TPE 185s will be getting new seats: When the aforementioned 150s are still running around with their original seating from thirty years ago, it does seem like a bit of an imbalance.

That'd be enough seats to furnish at least thirty 2-car units, probably a few more: That would certainly go a long way towards reseating all of Northern's 150 units that retain Ashbourne seating (envisaging a low density 2+2 "Metro" layout akin to that found on LMs' 172s). If the rest of the 185s were to have their seats replaced then that would be more than enough to finish the job (including all the additional 150/1s Northern are to receive).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is certainly not what I was expecting - something more like the Inverness/ScotRail Scenic refurb is what is needed to be of a suitable quality for Northern Connect.

As for 150s, used Desiro 2+2 seats might well be a good choice.

They did, but sadly that didn't extend to changing the layout - the 150/2s still have the impossibly tight 3+2 airline seat layout. I think solving that would require moving of some underseat equipment, but I think that would be money very well spent to move to a layout more like that of ATW.]

I really think 3+2 has had its day. 2+2 but with 3+2 seat width, or longitudinal seating, are both better at providing peak (standing) capacity and are also more comfortable off-peak.
I concur on all counts.
 
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Bantamzen

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I've heard someone say before the centre cars are keeping the same arrangement but the driving cars are getting an arrangement like the SWT 455s to increase the total capacity (seating+standing.)

I’d heard something along these lines too. I just hope that they remember the passengers need something to hold onto, as some of the sections of the Airedale line as well as the Wakefield line can be challenging for the passengers standing up (somewhere like west of Kirstall Forge through the curves). And it might not be the most popular option if the refurbished 333s work the peaks on any of the lines, as they can all fill up easily so less seats might equal more complaints. I think most passengers would prefer the same configuration to remain, I can just see the scramble for the seats in the end cars on the 17:20 Leeds-Doncaster or the infamous 17:26 Leeds-Skipton…. (I know the theory is that 2x 3 car 331s will operate some peaks, but with the complex diagrams it is very easy for units to end up anywhere if problems occur).
 

TH172341

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I will be disappointed if the 150s don't have new seats fitted; certainly the ex LM units. The cast off 185 seatings would be perfect actually for a metro 2+2 layout. Would be very similar then to the SWT 455/456s, which is the benchmark for any sort of 150 refurbishment.

Would like to see a Renatus style project for the 150/155/156s really; certainly would help to make them more modern and suited for the 21st century.
 

Paul_10

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I think the fact that they are actually calling it a "refresh" instead of a refurbishment speaks volumes really however one can only reserve judgement when we see the first few units out and see what they look like.

got to admit, when I saw the timescale on when these "refurbishments" are supposed to be done, I did thought 2019 looks a bit quick to get through so many units at once.

And I also ask, with electrification going on, just how long left does some of the sprinter fleet have in service? If say, its only 10-15 years, then is it really worth giving them the full make over?
 

sprinterguy

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And I also ask, with electrification going on, just how long left does some of the sprinter fleet have in service? If say, its only 10-15 years, then is it really worth giving them the full make over?
For at least ten further years of service, I would say that yes, it is.

It's worth noting from the following thread that the first two Northern units, 158752 and 150275, have already gone for refurbishment. It'll be interesting to see what has been done when they get back:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2517661

Of course, PRM-TSI toilet mods have already begun to be made on Angel Trains owned class 156 units: Does anybody know how many units have been completed so far?
 
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bramling

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The ex-FNW 150s could probably be refurbished so that they have seating arrangements like the ATW and ex-Wessex sets fairly easily - they already have the same type of seats, they just need 3+2 changed to 2+2, some armrests fitting and some seat back tables fitted in to the slots that already exist for them.

I do find it strange that the franchise requirement for 'like new' interiors can include the original 150/319 style seating. They may be a more modern style than Pacers with bus seating but that doesn't exactly mean much.

What's wrong with the facing layout in the ex-FNW 150/1s? For me these are the only class 150s which I find provide a pleasant travelling experience. I agree 2+2 would be preferable, but given the need to maximise seating availability I don't feel the 3+2 works too badly on these units.

Did these units have this seat layout originally, or did FNW change the layout?
 

northwichcat

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What's wrong with the facing layout in the ex-FNW 150/1s? For me these are the only class 150s which I find provide a pleasant travelling experience.

They're fine if the train is half empty but if it's full (which is a lot more likely in the Manchester area) you can't move your legs unless you're a dwarf sat opposite another dwarf. I once did Stockport-Preston on one of those on a very busy service and after sitting for over an hour without moving my legs I had problems getting up as my legs had completely gone to sleep!
 

Haydn1971

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I'm pleased it's called a "refresh" rather than the vocabulary used previously.... Renewals ? Pah !

The article does say "includes" so I wouldn't rule out more extensive work either as part of this refresh or later in the franchise. Hopefully the 158 seats will have new seat cushions rather than just recovers and they will find some of the missing seats from the 150s ! Haha

Some interesting times ahead it seems.
 

northwichcat

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May I ask how you got hold of a internal staff publication?

Someone publicly posted a link to it elsewhere. Even if they hadn't it's on the Internet, not a company only Intranet and not behind a login page so it could be picked up by search engines or found accidentally.
 

Andyh82

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Disappointed if it's just going to be the same old Northern cheapo refresh, same old seats just recovered.

The original seats in the ex-ATN 150s are nasty whatever seat cover is on them and it's barely step up from pacers.

For the 158s I was expecting a full interior strip out like East Midlands Trains did. No doubt they'll still keep the Regional Railways Express stripes on the edges of the luggage racks like at present.
 

Bletchleyite

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What's wrong with the facing layout in the ex-FNW 150/1s? For me these are the only class 150s which I find provide a pleasant travelling experience. I agree 2+2 would be preferable, but given the need to maximise seating availability I don't feel the 3+2 works too badly on these units.

Did these units have this seat layout originally, or did FNW change the layout?

All the FNW units are in original layout (apart from by the bog).
 

61653 HTAFC

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All the FNW units are in original layout (apart from by the bog).

Not quite. The seating was replaced and is mostly in the original layout but with a few changes such as long longitudinal benches near the enlarged (but importantly NOT 2020-compliant) toilets, and larger luggage racks on some, but not all units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For the 158s I was expecting a full interior strip out like East Midlands Trains did. No doubt they'll still keep the Regional Railways Express stripes on the edges of the luggage racks like at present.

I'd have been expecting the same, hopefully it'll be a case of a minor refresh initially followed by a more thorough refurbishment as and when they do the disability mods. As far as those stripes on the luggage racks are concerned it's only in the last 18 months or so that the West Yorkshire 10 had their red stripes replaced with standard blue.
 

WatcherZero

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Dont think I had seen that 24 two car 150's would be reformed in to 16 three car 150's before.

Thats 8 150's withdrawn and wonder if they will keep the other 8 cabs as spares.
 

Bletchleyite

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Dont think I had seen that 24 two car 150's would be reformed in to 16 three car 150's before.

Thats 8 150's withdrawn and wonder if they will keep the other 8 cabs as spares.

Not sure I follow - 24x2 is 48 vehicles, divided by 3 gives 16. No spare coaches.

The way it tends to be done is you split 150/2s in half and insert them between the two halves of a 150/1. So some units have two bogs and some not, but on non-reserved local services that doesn't really matter that much.

Or if you mean there are other 150s, they will remain as 2-car units, not be withdrawn. If they are getting rid of all the 153s there are lines that will well suit a 2-car 150 e.g. the two units that will be used to run Ormskirk-Preston hourly.
 
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