Northern rail ticket inspector overcharging for tickets

[mazza887]

Hello I got the train after 10am so was off-peak from Chelford to Manchester Piccadilly. No ticket facilities so I buy on the train. I have clarified on several occasions that for Chelford peak time is before 10am going into Manchester but in the evening there is no peak time for trains departing Manchester to Chelford they are all off-peak. The train station stop before Chelford is Alderley Edge and this is peak between I think 4pm -6.30pm or round about. But Chelford doesn’t have this because it is classed I think too far out from Manchester. But today the train inspector said all trains leaving Greater Manchester have an evening peak time. I said oh has it changed then? And he said no this has always been the case. He therefore tried to overcharge me for coming back at 5pm and overcharged others as well. Can anything be done?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Register a formal complaint. The more of them there are, the merrier. They might eventually, just maybe, pay attention.

 

[185]

Limit of the peak restrictions i) does extend into Cheshire BUT ii) not beyond Alderley Edge and thus Chelford has no evening peak restrictions.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/28-off-peak

 

[scrapy]

Hello I got the train after 10am so was off-peak from Chelford to Manchester Piccadilly. No ticket facilities so I buy on the train. I have clarified on several occasions that for Chelford peak time is before 10am going into Manchester but in the evening there is no peak time for trains departing Manchester to Chelford they are all off-peak. The train station stop before Chelford is Alderley Edge and this is peak between I think 4pm -6.30pm or round about. But Chelford doesn’t have this because it is classed I think too far out from Manchester. But today the train inspector said all trains leaving Greater Manchester have an evening peak time. I said oh has it changed then? And he said no this has always been the case. He therefore tried to overcharge me for coming back at 5pm and overcharged others as well. Can anything be done?

A Chelford to Manchester off peak day return has a B1 restriction and is not valid before 09.30. There is no evening peak restriction on this ticket.

A Chelford to Manchester Duo ticket has an evening peak restriction and is not valid to leave Greater Manchester stations between 16.01 and 17.59.

Assuming you held an off peak day return and not a Duo ticket and that you have not split tickets anywhere en route you should not have been charged an excess. You should contact Northern if it was their conductor or revenue staff(or the company who overcharged if different as TPE and Virgin also have revenue staff at Piccadilly)and demand an immediate refund and retraining of staff. If a Duo was the ticket used then the excess would have been charged correctly.

There is no 10am restriction on any ticket from Chelford however there is a minimum fare before 10am on some railcard so I assume this has created confusion.

There are indeed evening peak restrictions to Alderley Edge but this would not affect anyone with a Chelford ticket and they can also quite legitimately stop short or break their journey at any stop enroute on an off peak return.

 

[mazza887]

Hello!

I travelled at 11am so past the morning peak time.
I was travelling on my own but good to know there is a peak evening time for duo tickets in the future.
I do have a railcard but he asked me whether I wanted peak or off-peak before I presented that. Furthermore, he spent a good 5 minutes arguing with me that all Greater Manchester trains have evening peak restrictions. I said to him no Alderley Edge is the last stop that has such restrictions and stations after that on this train do not. He was adamant I was wrong and started to become rude to me.
I refused to pay for a peak ticket and asked for off-peak with the plan of checking and upgrading my ticket coming back if it turns out the system had changed so thankfully I am not owed any money. But I am concerned for anyone else who has been overcharged from any of the 5 stations after Alderley Edge that are not restricted.

 

[mazza887]

I have submitted a complaint

 

[Puffing Devil]

I've had similar problems travelling from Goostrey and started another thread about it. Looks like the training hasn't improved for the ticket sellers at Piccadilly. I even had a struggle getting a guard to sell me a duo on the outbound; he only relented when I showed him the NRE screen on my phone.

 

[furlong]

Copy the ORR (breach of the consumer regulations) - given the number of anecdotal reports, they really should already be aware of these problems and pro-actively be working with the company to resolve them...

 

[pemma]

I've had similar problems travelling from Goostrey and started another thread about it. Looks like the training hasn't improved for the ticket sellers at Piccadilly. I even had a struggle getting a guard to sell me a duo on the outbound; he only relented when I showed him the NRE screen on my phone.

I'm always amazed at how inconsistent things are at Northern.

One day someone asks a guard for two singles - he sells them a duo saying it's cheaper. Another day someone says something like "We're (2 people) making single journeys but is it cheaper to buy returns" - guard says no and sells two singles.

One day someone asks a ticket office clerk for a return to station C and the ticket clerk sells them tickets splitting at station B saying it's cheaper. Another day someone asks for split tickets and a ticket clerk grumbles and says they aren't supposed to sell split tickets.

 

[pemma]

There is no 10am restriction on any ticket from Chelford however there is a minimum fare before 10am on some railcard so I assume this has created confusion.

Or it could be because the first off-peak train to Manchester from Chelford is just after 10am. I thought for many years Knutsford to Northwich off-peak day returns were only valid after 09:30, it wasn't until an 08:59 train became 09:00 that I realised they were valid from 09:00.

 

[pemma]

No ticket facilities so I buy on the train.

Is Chelford set to get a TVM? If it does get one the good news is the tickets issued from Northern TVMs print the restriction code on them and tell you the page on the NR site for the full list of restriction codes. For instance, on a Chelford to Manchester Off-Peak Day Return the link of nationalrail.co.uk/b1 would be printed on it.

 

[Clip]

What a farce make sure you complain higher up if you get no decent response from Northern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What a farce make sure you complain higher up if you get no decent response from Northern.

If you get a response at all out of Carillion you're doing better than I've managed. As for the senior managers, they clearly don't care, it's all cash in their pocket.

It's basic stuff. But why get it correct when there's more money in getting it wrong?

 

[pemma]

What a farce make sure you complain higher up if you get no decent response from Northern.

I found with old Northern if your MP was willing to forward your compliant to Northern Head Office on your behalf it prompted a response from the Northern MD.

 

[roversfan2001]

I've had this before on the East Lancashire line. The lack of an evening peak outside of PTE areas seems to be ignored by a number of guards in different depots unfortunately. I complained and got the difference back a few weeks later.

 

[pemma]

And another incident

@NRE_Northern on the 17:23 from Greenbank the train conductor advised us that we couldn't purchase a duo return ticket to Knutsford? Is this correct?

https://twitter.com/chrisbakerrr/status/938702871549313024

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GBK&dest=KNF&tkt=FNW


Restrictions for Greenbank to Knutsford Duo

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on any train timed
to depart Mondays to Fridays
after 04:29 and before 09:00.

Not valid on any train
Saturday or Sundays during
December.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on any train
Saturday or Sundays during
December.

The tweet was written yesterday evening so the December Saturday/Sunday restriction wouldn't have applied.

 

[cuccir]

The attitude being reported of a minority of Northern guards is disappointing here, but the company does not seem to have made their life any easier by the complex variety of restrictions that they've introduced over the last few years: working on a train in which some stations are Anytime only, some tickets such as the Duo are barred, with differing weekend restrictions in December, and adding on Railcard minimum fares, is not the most straightforward

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I do have a railcard but he asked me whether I wanted peak or off-peak before I presented that. Furthermore, he spent a good 5 minutes arguing with me that all Greater Manchester trains have evening peak restrictions. I said to him no Alderley Edge is the last stop that has such restrictions and stations after that on this train do not. He was adamant I was wrong and started to become rude to me.

Why would you even tell them what time you are returning if you were confident of the validity of the ticket purchased?

 

[pemma]

Why would you even tell them what time you are returning if you were confident of the validity of the ticket purchased?

Both ticket office staff and guards ask what time you are returning if they think an evening peak restriction applies to the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"When's off peak? I'll make sure I come back then".

 

[Haywain]

"When's off peak? I'll make sure I come back then".

Or "I'll definitely be travelling when it's off peak". Which will be absolutely true!

 

[mazza887]

He asked me if I was coming back peak or off-peak and I said I thought there was no peak in the evenings. I thought maybe the restrictions had changed and I was not aware. I don't fancy an £80 penalty / day in court so it's vital I double check. Although why that is the penalty for short-faring and there is no penalty for over-charging I am not sure.

 

[pemma]

And another complaint. This time someone saying on multiple occasions conductors have claimed Northwich to Manchester off-peak day returns aren't valid in the 'evening peak' https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/940588890854961152

@northernassist a question for you... can i use an off-peak return if I am travelling to Northwich from Manchester on the 18.17 train?

Hi Michelle. Yes, it would be valid ^JB

you might want to have a word with your conductors then as today one tried to claim it wouldnt be and a peak ticket would be needed. And this has happened multiple times before.

I can see why there would be confusion, as the Greater Manchester zone goes out as far as Hale, and peak there runs until 18:29: http://bit.ly/2jduY7E . However, my sources for fares queries state Manchester-Northwich is different ^JB

Seems a fairly simple training issue to me...Conductors are normally OK but your RPI staff are clueless

 

[sportzbar]

If the person selling you the ticket is a Northern guard or barrier staff working on behalf of Northern then they will be using a Star Mobile ticket machine. It is very easy to check if there is an evening peak restriction as it will carry the ND code as opposed to the B1 code. These are the most common codes we come across as guards and it takes 1 yes 1 button press on the machine to see which code applies. I generally know which stations on my routes have which restrictions and so am usually able to issue tickets correctly. However I am human and on occasion autopilot has kicked in and I have incorrectly sold the wrong ticket or stated the wrong price. Most regular customers pick up on this straight away and using that 1 button press confirms the customer is right. A quick apology later and the correct ticket is issued. I have even realised later in the journey that I have sold the wrong ticket and made sure to rectify and refund where possible.

Ticketing is a minefield but the onus is on us staff to ensure we feel fully qualified with the equipment that we have and how to confirm tickets are valid. The info is there.

 

[Francis]

Similar experience, different line, same TOC - Northern. Travelling from Euston Balshaw Lane (no ticket machine) , no guard on train appeared, to Liverpool Lime St. Arr. about 11.30. At the ticket desk inside the barriers I asked for an off-peak day return EBA to LIV.The guy asked if I was going back between 16.00 and 18.00, and when I said probably, told me I had to have an Anytime return. I was dubious but I thought they might just have changed the rules.
I checked afterwards on the Nat Rail website and BR Fares, and found the evening peak did not apply to my journey. At the LIV main ticket office it took me 15 mins to get my £2.40 or so refund and an apology.

 

[Starmill]

I have experienced this problem myself with being charged for an Anytime ticket by Northern when a cheaper off-peak one would be valid. It does not surprise me sadly as I have known one or two people who are not forum members be overcharged in this way too.

Northern should never have introduced these restrictions as it has created a large number of anomalies and they are not enforced correctly. I said this all at the time but of course it was all very predictable.

 

[island]

It wasn’t Northern’s choice.

 

[Starmill]

It wasn't a franchise requirement to retain them.

 

[johntea]

I have also found Northern guards to be poorly trained in terms of the restrictions, I don't expect them to have a textbook knowledge of every single fare of course but some seem to just go along the lines of 'Ah you're travelling between 16:01 and 18:29 so you need an Anytime ticket'.

If you have a smartphone I would recommend actually downloading the Northern Rail train ticket app (or similar) then quickly looking up your journey on it before the guard arrives as it'll work out if you need an Anytime or Off Peak ticket based on the times you put in.

 

[Hadders]

Just about the only advantage of the new style tickets is the restriction are made far clearer. Far easier to look up the restriction on a smartphone in the event of a disputed.