Northern Rail - what would have made them 'good'?

[CaptainHaddock]

The "no growth" contract argument is trotted out solely by people with little experience of business or management of contracts. It is a perfectly acceptable, standard way of setting the initial scope of supply of a long term contract, when subsequent growth (always a difficult thing to predict) can be handled by contract change procedures. The company I work for has several long term £multimillion contracts which could be termed as no-growth in that no assumptions in the contract about growth, they are all handled by contract change. That is all quite normal, quite standard, nothing to see here.

Management of contract change is one the most important aspects of commercial project management - arguably the most important.

We have been left with the impression that the DfT are not as willing to contemplate contract change as they should be, because occasions where they have refused contract changes cause the moaners to come out in force. However the moaners conveniently forget the examples you mention - Barnsley is a great example - as well as many others. My local Calder Valley line has seen a near doubling of services under the franchise, with improved and longer rolling stock.

The franchise has been anything but "no growth".

The introduction of the the fast Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds trains didn't benefit everyone and came at quite a cost to many South Yorkshire commuters like myself. Train services from Elsecar station in particular were slashed from 3 trains an hour to just 1 - they even cut out the stop on the Huddersfield service!

So to answer the question in the thread title what would have made Northern good would have been a commitment to provide a decent service from smaller stations rather than just focussing on those in major towns and cities.

 

[pemma]

This is a good point, and to me the alternative is that certain lines are designated Paytrains, whereby you can pay on board if you wish regardless of the TVM etc.

It's the inconsistency (one day you get sold a ticket, the next you get a RoRA prosecution and a criminal record) that I find to be a serious problem. And when you read through the Prosecutions forum, it seems to be mostly Northern coming up, over and over again, with this kind of issue. In those cases the guard would either have to come through, or could be issued with a book of "Permits to Travel" to prove you had come from a Paytrain line in the event of a reason they could not do tickets.

Last Friday when I was travelling from Northwich to Knutsford the guard kept announcing he would not be coming through the train as his ticket machine was broken (he would have had a job anyway given the number of standing passengers.) On arrival at Knutsford there was 1 STM RPI (without a machine) trying to check tickets and send people without tickets to the ticket office window. When he had 50+ passengers to deal with and no tickets sold on board, that wasn't very practical!

 

[47802]

My main beef has always been the quality and condition of the rolling stock particularly the diesel fleet, had the diesel fleet been refurbished properly to a decent standard including the Rail Buses, I think there would have been less clamour to get rid of them, but on a 155 the other day, dirty, smelly, the plastic panelling has a Engrained Dirt colour scheme, then of course there is the famous Merseyrail 142's which are even dirtier and smellier.

I remember I got on a GWR 143 a few years ago which had been recently refurbished and was shocked at the contrast between this train and a Northern 142.

 

[Iskra]

Well, they've done some good things. What more could they have done ?

Had a better saturday service on the Whitby branch, perhaps by borrowing a DMU used for the Monday - Friday peak elsewhere.

They could have offered some competitive route only fares, for example WYorks - Lancaster via Skipton.

Kept the 308's (or at least one for special occasions).

There are cheaper fares via Bentham from Leeds-Lancaster.

 

[DarloRich]

Which is why a lot of people argue that trains should have the capability for guards to dispatch from an door as well as from the rear cab. It also means that guards tend to be seen so people a) feel safer b) feel more inclined to buy a ticket rather than risk it.

That's not to say that there will not be times when guards need to be in the rear cab, but they should be the exception rather than the rule.

I agree entirely

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

As somebody who uses Northern quite a lot, I am sad to see them go in their currant form. I have found their trains to be good, more or less tidy, and staff to be the friendliest I have had the good fortune to speak to - train crews are well turned out in their appearance also. Their "back of house" team are also very nice and extremely funny - an example from the other day is when they got into a three way rhyming battle with Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains East Coast over twitter! Apart from that, they go out their way to help people find things they want - case in point being their working with other parts of Northern Rail to provide me with 142009's location when I set out to see her

As for services, it has to be noted, as others have already done so, they were told "no expansion" which they sort of ignored with the LHCS up on the Cumbrian Line.

With regards to the units, I will admit that some of them are in need of a good cleaning, but with such a high number of routes, and the huge amount of work each unit has to do, this is understandable. I actually find 155s to be the dirtiest and will avoid them whenever possible.

All in all, I think it will be sad at 01:26 on the 1st when their final booked arrival comes in

 

[thenorthern]

Overall I think Serco-Abellio have done well running the Northern Rail franchise and I don't think that any other company would have done a better job.

I think the biggest problem for Northern Rail has been its financial figures. The Department for Transport was never going to fund a pacer replacement when the company was costing them 40p per passenger mile compared to the South East where some companies were giving them more money than they were giving out in subsidies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So to answer the question in the thread title what would have made Northern good would have been a commitment to provide a decent service from smaller stations rather than just focussing on those in major towns and cities.

I think the "growth" that people go on about has been largely between the major towns/cities and is where the revenue is.
Many people are put off using "stoppers".
Northern have done some quite clever skip-stopping to speed up some services, but it won't suit the users of the omitted stops.

As for services, it has to be noted, as others have already done so, they were told "no expansion" which they sort of ignored with the LHCS up on the Cumbrian Line.

Northern didn't fund the Cumbrian LHCS, DfT paid for them to do it, to release DMUs for other services.

 

[pemma]

Northern didn't fund the Cumbrian LHCS, DfT paid for them to do it, to release DMUs for other services.

Or in other words to find a solution to the embarrassing situation where TPE were losing their 170s to Chiltern with nothing to replace them.

 

[thenorthern]

With the Cumbrian Coast I think DRS tried a Carlisle to Sellafield service a couple of years ago to encourage more people to take the train to Sellafield as the timetable for the Cumbrian coast line isn't attractive to Sellfield commuters. The service was run with 3 coaches with the first two for Sellafield workers and the last one for regular passengers.

It wasn't a success so it was withdrawn and after than they discussed running a joint service with Northern Rail which is the one we see today.

 

[pemma]

With the Cumbrian Coast I think DRS tried a Carlisle to Sellafield service a couple of years ago to encourage more people to take the train to Sellafield as the timetable for the Cumbrian coast line isn't attractive to Sellfield commuters. The service was run with 3 coaches with the first two for Sellafield workers and the last one for regular passengers.

It wasn't a success so it was withdrawn and after than they discussed running a joint service with Northern Rail which is the one we see today.

DRS did try one and I'm pretty sure they received funding from Sellafield Ltd to do it.

The loco-hauled services we see today only exist because of the rolling stock problem created by Porterbrook leasing the 170/3s to Chiltern when TPE still needed them as already discussed.

 

[yorksrob]

There are cheaper fares via Bentham from Leeds-Lancaster.

All I'm getting on NRE is a £31.30 anytime return either direct (via Skipton) or via the alternatives.

 

[dosxuk]

As Northern Rail operated by Serco and Abellio comes to it's end, it seems that most people's opinon of them is that they were largely pretty poor. Not the worst, by any means, but certainly not great either.

They did a far better job than their predecessors. Hopefully nobody will ever let that bunch be in charge of anything ever again...

 

[Gathursty]

Living in Wigan, many of my journeys have involved a Northern Rail service. Apart from the state of the rolling stock we get in this area, I can't complain about the quality of Northern Rail. They have been generally great. It is only odd situations where staff can't find a station or I've been delayed at a station with an hourly service that didn't have a PIS (Gathurst now does) but these problems aren't unique to Northern Rail to be honest.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm interested to know what forum users think Northern could have realistically done to improve the service they offered and have been considered a good TOC?

In 2007, Northern being aware of the considerable increase in demand for services, could have gone out to their passengers and said:-

"Would you, as passengers, consider investing in new rolling stock for the Northern area?

There is a window of opportunity to purchase brand new Class 172 rolling stock to augment our current fleet. We estimate that for every three thousand £1000 bonds we sell, we could invest in a 2-car modern air conditioned DMU (A 2 car Class 172 is the same length as a 3 car "Pacer" train).

Your investment would be secured of the physical asset of the train and we would pay a coupon rate in the region of what we currently pay for Pacer trains.

100,000 people pass through Manchester Picadilly and Leeds stations every working day - If half of these passengers were prepared to invest, we could buy 16 new trains and deliver around one million extra rush hour seats every year."

 

[Iskra]

All I'm getting on NRE is a £31.30 anytime return either direct (via Skipton) or via the alternatives.

For tickets on this Friday I get:

£28.20 for an anytime any route or £21.30 for an anytime via Bentham to do Leeds to Lancaster. That's a decent saving in my opinion.

 

[yorksrob]

For tickets on this Friday I get:

£28.20 for an anytime any route or £21.30 for an anytime via Bentham to do Leeds to Lancaster. That's a decent saving in my opinion.

Just tried on Friday. Still anytime £31.30. What website are you using ?

 

[Iskra]

Just tried on Friday. Still anytime £31.30. What website are you using ?

NRE! Leeds-Lancaster, trains after 9am Friday 25th.

Also, I have bought cheaper 'via Carnforth' tickets to Lancaster from Leeds in person before, so they definitely exist.

 

[yorksrob]

NRE! Leeds-Lancaster, trains after 9am Friday 25th.

Also, I have bought cheaper 'via Carnforth' tickets to Lancaster from Leeds in person before, so they definitely exist.

This is what I'm seeing:

 

[lejog]

Have you tried putting a via point in your search?

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LDS&dest=LAN shows three Anytime Day Return fares from Leeds to Lancaster

£31.30 Any permitted
£25.50 Via Burnley
£24.40 Via Skipton

There are also 3 different Anytime Single fares and 3 Anytime Return fares covering the three routes.

Edit: To get NRE to show the £24.40 fare without specifying a via point it appears that you have to have a direct service appearing in BOTH the outward and return journey lists, else at least one leg will be routed via Manchester.

 

[matacaster]

The northern high-backed reseating upgrade on its 142's (I think) was diabolical. The seat pitch was the same or worse than the previous bus bench seats, but as the seats were around 4 times as thick, I found it absolutely impossible to sit with my knees facing forward and I am only just shy of six foot. The only way I could sit reasonably comfortably was by placing my legs at an angle thus conflicting with space of person next to me.

In general, I don't understand why modern seating on trains is so poor. Do the designers never travel by train themselves (or even by car?). Most modern train seating is unduly hard [333], narrow [pendelino, voyager], little or no lumbar support [almost all]. When posessing high backs - its usually more of a design statement than useful to the passenger as there is no supportive moveable headrest. Consider car seats and headrests in comparison (but ignore most airplane seats which appear to have 'benefitted' from the same designers as rail seats.

 

[crehld]

The northern high-backed reseating upgrade on its 142's (I think) was diabolical. The seat pitch was the same or worse than the previous bus bench seats, but as the seats were around 4 times as thick, I found it absolutely impossible to sit with my knees facing forward and I am only just shy of six foot. The only way I could sit reasonably comfortably was by placing my legs at an angle thus conflicting with space of person next to me.

I think you might be referring to the 144s.

In general, I don't understand why modern seating on trains is so poor. Do the designers never travel by train themselves (or even by car?). Most modern train seating is unduly hard [333], narrow [pendelino, voyager], little or no lumbar support [almost all]. When posessing high backs - its usually more of a design statement than useful to the passenger as there is no supportive moveable headrest. Consider car seats and headrests in comparison (but ignore most airplane seats which appear to have 'benefitted' from the same designers as rail seats.

I think it's down to a matter of personal preference. I actually prefer the more modern seat designs. I have find pendelino and voyager seats perfectly comfortable (but then I'm not particularly tall nor large). In fact I find the so-called 'ironing boards' on Southern's newer 377s, which many people detest, the most comfortable, despite the seeming lack of padding. Many rate the old mark III carriage seats, which I personally find far too low and incredibly uncomfortable.

 

[thenorthern]

I wonder if in 2025 we will have a similar thread discussing the demise of Arriva Northern.

Back to today though I think one of the of the financial issues Northern Rail has had is the amount of lightly used stations it has.

Stations such as Teesside Airport, Wennington and Dent still need all the posters putting up, lighting switched on and bins emptying all of which costs money and given the rural locations it costs much more.

 

[yorksrob]

Have you tried putting a via point in your search?

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LDS&dest=LAN shows three Anytime Day Return fares from Leeds to Lancaster

£31.30 Any permitted
£25.50 Via Burnley
£24.40 Via Skipton

There are also 3 different Anytime Single fares and 3 Anytime Return fares covering the three routes.

Edit: To get NRE to show the £24.40 fare without specifying a via point it appears that you have to have a direct service appearing in BOTH the outward and return journey lists, else at least one leg will be routed via Manchester.

Perhaps its just NRE being a steaming pile of whoopsy as usual.

 

[crehld]

I wonder if in 2025 we will have a similar thread discussing the demise of Arriva Northern.

Back to today though I think one of the of the financial issues Northern Rail has had is the amount of lightly used stations it has.

Stations such as Teesside Airport, Wennington and Dent still need all the posters putting up, lighting switched on and bins emptying all of which costs money and given the rural locations it costs much more.

Interesting you cite Wennington... I witnessed 7 or 8 people get on a train here today (in my carriage anyway) ... of course no one bothered to check or sell them a ticket. So assuming they didn't already hold a ticket then officially they haven't used the station. I know it's a common gripe of mine, and I do admit that Wennington is lightly used compared to Northern's other stations (a symptom of a poor service as much as a low population), but at the risk of sounding like a broken record then usage here like all other stations on the Settle-Carlisle and Bentham lines, is underestimated.

Of course if these passengers were all sold tickets we'd have a better idea of usage, and Northern would have some more money to help towards those costs you outline.

It is indeed this which I think Northern should have been better at. There seems to have been a rather laissez-faire approach to ticket checking and revenue collection, especially from unstaffed stations. And where revenue protection is put in place, it is very poorly applied, ill thought through and far too many 'one-off' mistakes have been made (as I found out myself). This has got better recently, but it remains the fact that couple of years ago I needn't have bothered buying a ticket for months at a time when travelling with Northern. Unlike myself I suspect a great many didn't bother to go to the effort of visiting a ticket office at their destination (and a lot of the time this option isn't actually available anyway).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps its just NRE being a steaming pile of whoopsy as usual.

This is one of those tickets I'd visit a ticket office / ask a guard for as not all TVMs will sell it and getting a website to bring the price up can be a real faff.

 

[yorksrob]

This is one of those tickets I'd visit a ticket office / ask a guard for as not all TVMs will sell it and getting a website to bring the price up can be a real faff.

Indeed.

It's just a shame that many NRE users probably won't know what to ask for.

 

[6Gman]

I've been very happy with the service from Crewe-Manchester and the 323s It's reliable and the rolling stock good.

My main use of Northern has been on that route and I would agree - though a bit more padding on the seats would be nice!

Their DMUs, however, always seem tired, tatty and - too often - mucky.

And don't get me started on their G4S goons ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The northern high-backed reseating upgrade on its 142's (I think) was diabolical.

Did Northern reseat any Pacers? I thought they were all ex-fNW or ex-ATN.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Did Northern reseat any Pacers? I thought they were all ex-fNW or ex-ATN.

I can only assume that Matacaster either mistook 144s for 142s, or is talking about the Northern Spirit designed refurbishment of 142s. Neither of these refurbishments we're carried out by Serco/Abellio but they did get refreshed in Northern house colours. In the case of the NS 142s this refresh seemed to fix the fragility of the seats as originally fitted.

 

[thenorthern]

I personally felt that the merging of the North East and North West franchises was a bad move as it meant a single company based in Leeds having to organise services in some of the largest cities in the country with 5 separate PTEs to deal with.

Looking back though when First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern finished in 2004 not many people were sad to see them go. I personally thought that First North Western were quite good although I know I am in a very small minority there.

Did Northern reseat any Pacers? I thought they were all ex-fNW or ex-ATN.

I think First Great Western reseated some hence why some have FGW style interior.