Northern Rail - what would have made them 'good'?

[sprinterguy]

I think First Great Western reseated some hence why some have FGW style interior.

All of the 142s which were leased to FGW for a time retain the original bench seating, and are sets which were given a facelift by First North Western.

The only Pacer to have received new seats during Northern's tenure has been the ePacer demonstrator, 144012.

 

[lejog]

Perhaps its just NRE being a steaming pile of whoopsy as usual.

No its not, IT systems aren't psychic, NRE assumes that passengers want to travel within the time range they specify. If you wanted to find the fare via Skipton you need to specify a return time when there is a service via Skipton, alternatively you could specify Direct Trains Only only or just use the Earlier/Later buttons.

Or if you are flexible with times and want the cheapest fare, try

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/farefinder/search

and tick all the All Day box.

 

[anti-pacer]

In my opinion, more on-train/turnaround cleaning. A lot of Northern's stock is like a moving litter bin, and yes, I know that's down to the passengers. However, some of us are clean and don't want to travel on filthy trains.

Their customer services were good though. Can't fault them.

 

[johnnychips]

Their customer services were good though. Can't fault them.

The customer services manager at Oxford Rd made a great effort to recover the phone I'm typing this on now, which I stupidly left on a TPE train.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

In my opinion, more on-train/turnaround cleaning. A lot of Northern's stock is like a moving litter bin, and yes, I know that's down to the passengers. However, some of us are clean and don't want to travel on filthy trains.

Their customer services were good though. Can't fault them.

The customer services manager at Oxford Rd made a great effort to recover the phone I'm typing this on now, which I stupidly left on a TPE train.

Yeah, I second that... Great times playing word games with the stations, planning fictional 142/144 railtours and, recently, betting on the weekly cancellations on trains to and from Barton

 

[yorksrob]

No its not, IT systems aren't psychic, NRE assumes that passengers want to travel within the time range they specify. If you wanted to find the fare via Skipton you need to specify a return time when there is a service via Skipton, alternatively you could specify Direct Trains Only only or just use the Earlier/Later buttons.

Or if you are flexible with times and want the cheapest fare, try

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/farefinder/search

and tick all the All Day box.

Er no,

The missing fares are both for Anytime Returns, which means they should have both shown up on their respective journeys (in the absence of anything cheaper) both routes of which are shown on the screen dump I posted, rather than £31.30.

It doesn't require "psychic" powers to know that passengers would rather a cheaper anytime return for the route, rather than some random more expensive anytime return which seems to serve no purpose.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

In my opinion, more on-train/turnaround cleaning. A lot of Northern's stock is like a moving litter bin, and yes, I know that's down to the passengers. However, some of us are clean and don't want to travel on filthy trains.

Their customer services were good though. Can't fault them.

I can agree to that, its mostly women thinking the cleaning faries will come along and clean it for them when in fact there's perfectly sized box behind the seat with has a stick figure placing summat into a basket.

I hate to see what these litter bugs homes are like!

 

[Sheepy1209]

I can agree to that, its mostly women thinking the cleaning faries will come along and clean it for them when in fact there's perfectly sized box behind the seat with has a stick figure placing summat into a basket.

I hate to see what these litter bugs homes are like!

Having endured a fortnight commuting from Blackpool to Stockport, all I can say is that it takes more than a bit of litter to generate the squalor that passes for a clean train at Northern (apart from one particular 150 which seemed to have been deep cleaned and was quite pleasant). It's not coffee cups and copies of the metro, it's the thick layer of hairy, sticky gunk that clings to everything below seat level, the corners that haven't seen any cleaning for years. Even a 158 that I took to Leeds last week was filthy, and had one bay with a table completely missing. Sit in an EMT 158 and then a Northern, you wouldn't think they were the same age and type.

Why is that TPE and EMT trains are almost always immaculate?

It's nothing to do with the passengers, where they come from etc. They're no dirtier than anywhere else (and a recent trip on a Southern 377 made me think there's another company with Northern's pride in its rolling stock).

Such a shame, because apart from one badger-related incident every journey was near enough on time, staff all helpful and friendly. Northern provide a good service, they just don't have the stock to be able to provide that service and look after it.

Ironically the cleanest train of the lot was a Pacer.......

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Great times betting on the weekly cancellations on trains to and from Barton

You'll have to let Northern Rail off the hook with that one, as those services are crewed by TPE staff, as are most of Northerns services along the Yorkshire Coast beyond Brid to Scarborough. Its TPE drivers that have been working to rule and not rest days. Unfortunately the remaining duty crews were prioritised onto TPE services before covering Northern's trains.

 

[pemma]

You'll have to let Northern Rail off the hook with that one, as those services are crewed by TPE staff, as are most of Northerns services along the Yorkshire Coast beyond Brid to Scarborough. Its TPE drivers that have been working to rule and not rest days. Unfortunately the remaining duty crews were prioritised onto TPE services before covering Northern's trains.

It's still Northern's responsibility to provide the service though so if the subcontractor (TPE) has problems Northern are the one who need to find a solution.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...
Why is that TPE and EMT trains are almost always immaculate?...

You must be travelling on different TPE services to me, is all I can say there!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's still Northern's responsibility to provide the service though so if the subcontractor (TPE) has problems Northern are the one who need to find a solution.

Given that only TPE drivers and guards sign the route, I'd say there aren't many options, besides passing the delay and cancellation charges on to them in the hope that their priorities change.

 

[johntea]

They could do with a bit more super glue for some of the seat cushions

 

[pemma]

They could do with a bit more super glue for some of the seat cushions

Generally I don't think Northern's new seat covers fit any of the old seat designs that well. Maybe it's difficult to get new seat covers manufactured for old seats as the 142s which got the dynamic lines seat covers when loaned to FGW didn't last that long before they started falling off.

 

[thealexweb]

Fairer allocation of stock. For example, almost all of Bolton's Northern services are formed of 142s/150s. A tiny handful of 156s also form Northern's Bolton services and there are no active 158 diagrams to my knowledge. Leeds and its surrounding PTE just seem to get it better in terms of DMUs.

 

[pemma]

Fairer allocation of stock. For example, almost all of Bolton's Northern services are formed of 142s/150s. A tiny handful of 156s also form Northern's Bolton services and there are no active 158 diagrams to my knowledge. Leeds and its surrounding PTE just seem to get it better in terms of DMUs.

I think there is actually a late Blackpool-Victoria service which is booked as a 158 but that's really for stock movement purposes. Northern mainly use 156s in single formation on the busiest diagrams which aren't strengthened so as a result of there being a lot of 4 car workings through Bolton there aren't that many 156 workings.

West Yorkshire finished up with 333s part funded by SYPTE and some 158s funded by Merseytravel, while TfGM contributed to funding the CCTV on the 158s.

Given pretty much all the current 158 routes are getting new CAF DMUs or 170s under the next franchise I wonder where the 158s will go long term, other than the 2 North East routes which have been promised refurbished 158s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think there is actually a late Blackpool-Victoria service which is booked as a 158 but that's really for stock movement purposes. Northern mainly use 156s in single formation on the busiest diagrams which aren't strengthened so as a result of there being a lot of 4 car workings through Bolton there aren't that many 156 workings.

West Yorkshire finished up with 333s part funded by SYPTE and some 158s funded by Merseytravel, while TfGM contributed to funding the CCTV on the 158s.

Given pretty much all the current 158 routes are getting new CAF DMUs or 170s under the next franchise I wonder where the 158s will go long term, other than the 2 North East routes which have been promised refurbished 158s.

Besides the North Eastern Connect routes, I'd guess that Leeds to Carlisle will continue to be a 158 working. Beyond that it's anyone's guess but I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of the non-"Connect" West Yorkshire services become regular 158 runs. This of course doesn't include Harrogate which is apparently getting 3-car 170s once Scotrail releases them.

 

[pemma]

Besides the North Eastern Connect routes, I'd guess that Leeds to Carlisle will continue to be a 158 working. Beyond that it's anyone's guess but I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of the non-"Connect" West Yorkshire services become regular 158 runs. This of course doesn't include Harrogate which is apparently getting 3-car 170s once Scotrail releases them.

Settle-Carlisle was mentioned in RAIL are getting refurbished 158s under the next franchise as well but the only current 158 route which is.

There won't be much left in West Yorkshire that's suitable for 158s - the slow Calder Valley service via Dewsbury will get 170s, while the Huddersfield-Leeds via Dewsbury service will be replaced by TPE 'semi-fasts' operated by 185s. That only leaves a few routes like Penistone Line, slow services between Leeds and Sheffield, Knottingley, Huddersfield-Wakefield, Huddersfield-Leeds via Bradford. 150s will suit those services better than 158s.

While there aren't lots of services west of the Pennines which 158s are ideal for they'll be quite a few longer services which won't be getting CAF trains or cascaded 170s, some of which have short sections where the line speed allows faster than 75mph so they could be an option for some of the 158s.

 

[northernchris]

While there aren't lots of services west of the Pennines which 158s are ideal for they'll be quite a few longer services which won't be getting CAF trains or cascaded 170s, some of which have short sections where the line speed allows faster than 75mph so they could be an option for some of the 158s.

It will be intetesting to see if Arriva keep Northern's policy of keeping units allocated to one or two depots.

Northern have mostly been a good operator, and as others have said I doubt any other company would have done a better job given the terms of the franchise.

 

[pemma]

It will be intetesting to see if Arriva keep Northern's policy of keeping units allocated to one or two depots.

Northern have mostly been a good operator, and as others have said I doubt any other company would have done a better job given the terms of the franchise.

While Northern have allocated DMUs at only one or two depots per class it's only really the 144s, 155s, 158s and EMUs which only operate on routes fairly local to their home depots.

I think the CAF trains will need to be maintained both side of the Pennines. They'll be more CAF DMUs that start the day east of the Pennines than west of the Pennines but they could diagram the DMUs so they are all maintained at one depot with overnight stabling at other locations. Although, with the EMUs that won't work.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I may have looked at Northern more favourably if they had run the Ellesmere Port to Helsby service in the spirit intended by the PSR (4 trains per day, two in each peak) rather than for their own convenience. I am sure the PST setter did not envisage all four trains running between 6 & 7 am and 3 & 4 pm.

Of course, the line should never been part of the Northern franchise, it should have been run by Arriva Train Wales. Lets hope connectivity with the promised new Northern Chester - Manchester - Bradford service will improve things.

 

[anti-pacer]

Having endured a fortnight commuting from Blackpool to Stockport, all I can say is that it takes more than a bit of litter to generate the squalor that passes for a clean train at Northern (apart from one particular 150 which seemed to have been deep cleaned and was quite pleasant). It's not coffee cups and copies of the metro, it's the thick layer of hairy, sticky gunk that clings to everything below seat level, the corners that haven't seen any cleaning for years. Even a 158 that I took to Leeds last week was filthy, and had one bay with a table completely missing. Sit in an EMT 158 and then a Northern, you wouldn't think they were the same age and type.

Why is that TPE and EMT trains are almost always immaculate?

It's nothing to do with the passengers, where they come from etc. They're no dirtier than anywhere else (and a recent trip on a Southern 377 made me think there's another company with Northern's pride in its rolling stock).

Such a shame, because apart from one badger-related incident every journey was near enough on time, staff all helpful and friendly. Northern provide a good service, they just don't have the stock to be able to provide that service and look after it.

Ironically the cleanest train of the lot was a Pacer.......

I wonder if on train cleanliness will improve under ARN.

 

[cactustwirly]

Clean trains, and more Ticket Machines

 

[anti-pacer]

Clean trains, and more Ticket Machines

Is that what you wanted under Northern or what Arriva are promising?

 

[cactustwirly]

Is that what you wanted under Northern or what Arriva are promising?

What I wanted under Northern

The trains I have used have been really tatty and dirty, and most unstaffed stations in West Yorkshire have nowhere to buy a ticket which leads to a frustrating wait at Leeds to buy a ticket to exit

 

[thealexweb]

I think there is actually a late Blackpool-Victoria service which is booked as a 158 but that's really for stock movement purposes. Northern mainly use 156s in single formation on the busiest diagrams which aren't strengthened so as a result of there being a lot of 4 car workings through Bolton there aren't that many 156 workings.

West Yorkshire finished up with 333s part funded by SYPTE and some 158s funded by Merseytravel, while TfGM contributed to funding the CCTV on the 158s.

Given pretty much all the current 158 routes are getting new CAF DMUs or 170s under the next franchise I wonder where the 158s will go long term, other than the 2 North East routes which have been promised refurbished 158s.

I have not seen the evening 158 working since 2012 and I believe that run is timed as a 150/156 run.

I am puzzled as to why TfGM would put any money in to the 158s when they spend the vast majority of their time outside of Greater Manchester, compared to say 156s.

 

[8J]

Merseytravel fund the use of 156's don't they?

 

[pemma]

I am puzzled as to why TfGM would put any money in to the 158s when they spend the vast majority of their time outside of Greater Manchester, compared to say 156s.

The option of fitting CCTV to the 158s and EMUs was put forward and the PTEs agreed to fund it on condition that if the units left the area the replacements would have CCTV at no cost to the PTE. The number TfGM funded seemed to relate to the number of 158s used on Victoria-Leeds services and was funded at the same time they found funds for CCTV on the 323s. I'm not sure why they did, perhaps the Yorkshire PTEs refused/were unable to fund CCTV for all the 158s and if TfGM hadn't then some wouldn't got CCTV?

Merseytravel fund the use of 156's don't they?

Merseytravel funded the acquisition of 6 additional 158s for the Northern franchise. Northern convinced them it would be better if those 158s were based at Neville Hill to be with the others and offered to use 6 x (ex-ATN) 156s on Merseytravel's choice of services which they sold in as being better as they have more seats than 158s. I don't know if Merseytravel still fund them as funding is different for the Direct Award and the services Merseytravel funded were Liverpool to Wigan and Liverpool to Manchester Airport services, which are now all booked as 319s.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Based on the hand they were dealt, I would rate them as good. I haven't suffered too many major delays or disruptions, found the staff to be good and the service pretty reliable. I would have preferred better rolling stock, but that's my only real negative sometimes.

+1

I myself would rate Northern Rail as good, as in the last 14 months I've been using their services on a regular basis I have had very little (if anything to be honest) to complain about.

I often use them when back in the UK.

I think that Northern did quite well, considering the resources they were allowed to use by DfT.

Agreed

 

[Tetchytyke]

Northern have mostly been a good operator, and as others have said I doubt any other company would have done a better job given the terms of the franchise.

I think Arriva would have done better than Serco, because they were doing better before the franchise change in 2004.

Northern were not bad, but they were not as good as Arriva Trains Northern. They were, admittedly, much better than First North Western though.

I guess I'll now get to be proven wrong