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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

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Islineclear3_1

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Sorry for starting a new thread on this but are there any updates on the movement of 319/3's to Northern once the 387's come on stream? I thought I read somewhere that 319.361 had been stopped and was meant to be moved this month but this has not taken place
 
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Manchester77

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Due to the delay in introducing the 377/7s on southern the 377/2s couldn't be cascaded to Thameslink in time and so the cascade of 319361 had to be delayed a month so it goes off lease on the 01/06 instead of the 01/05
 

Class377/5

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Sorry for starting a new thread on this but are there any updates on the movement of 319/3's to Northern once the 387's come on stream? I thought I read somewhere that 319.361 had been stopped and was meant to be moved this month but this has not taken place

387 don't start replacing the 319s until early next year as the first isn't even built yet (its on the production line) and the 7th 319 (requires the first in service 387 to replace it) doesn't go off contract until March next year. The initial cascades are from the 377/2 arrivals with the first unit, 361, now expected to go on 01/06/14 according to some.

361 did have booked moves to take it to Crewe on the 01/05 but it was cancelled at last minute.
 

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Reading other threads & sources about transfer of Class 319s to Allerton to work Liverpool - Manchester Vic/Airport (and presumably Liverpool - Wigan/Preston trains) from next year, I wondered if there is any visibility of what rolling stock will be used once the Preston - Blackpool and Manchester - Bolton - Euxton Jct electrifications are completed?

Is the current best guess that refurbished Class 319s will also be used for all these shorter distance electric services:
  • Liverpool - Manchester Vic/Airport
  • Liverpool - St.Helens - Wigan/Preston
  • Blackpool - Preston - Manchester/Liverpool
  • Manchester - Bolton - Wigan
  • Man Vic - Stalybridge extension?
Presumably if any new-build EMUs were to be procured for any of the new electric services, this would be well known by now.

I also saw that part of the ex-Thameslink Class 319 fleet is proposed to go to outer-suburban lines from Paddington in a similar timeframe to the later north-west projects.

Will there be enough Class 319s to cascade to everywhere that will need them?
 

Manchester77

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Any 319 to GW will only be temporary now the requirement for fast lime running and so 110mph running is needed. There was a mention of procurement of new EMUs for these lines in the FGW direct award however this has been withdrawn with the plan being to use 387s I believe. There may be a small fleet for GW services around Bristol and maybe some of the this valley branches which don't run on the main line but they're not going to be the principle fleet. Northern are expected to take on most of the 319s and according to Tony Miles TPE won't be getting 319s they will get something else probably set out in the ITT for the next proper franchise.
 

swt_passenger

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Will there be enough Class 319s to cascade to everywhere that will need them?

Probably not. Many of the electrification projects have been extended since the original DfT announcements about moving them were made, and they've subsequently ordered the 387s with a view to moving them to "somewhere else" in a few years.

One of the problems is that NR have to plan ahead for infrastructure changes for something, if only to work out dimensions of platforms etc, so in their published view of what might happen they'll sometimes write "319s" as shorthand for "319s or whatever 4 car EMU is available" - I don't think anything can be guaranteed...
 

sprinterguy

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Northern are expected to take on most of the 319s
Most of the 319s? For the scope of the North West electrification, I would have thought that the 26 x 319/3s (formerly 319/1s) would be more or less sufficient to operate all the electrified services.

That would leave the 60 x 319/0s (Now spread across a range of sub-classes) available for use elsewhere. While not all of the 57 strong Network Turbo fleet will be replaced by electrification along the Thames Valley, with aspirations for 12-car working to Reading & Oxford following electrification that might not be a bad fit for the Great Western in the short term.
 

158722

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Most of the 319s? For the scope of the North West electrification, I would have thought that the 26 x 319/3s (formerly 319/1s) would be more or less sufficient to operate all the electrified services.

That would leave the 60 x 319/0s (Now spread across a range of sub-classes) available for use elsewhere. While not all of the 57 strong Network Turbo fleet will be replaced by electrification along the Thames Valley, with aspirations for 12-car working to Reading & Oxford following electrification that might not be a bad fit for the Great Western in the short term.

Northern will need way more than 26 319s, potentially. I tried to review this in the following thread, which does need updating now.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934
14 319s due by mid 2015, as we know, more required when Preston-Blackpool goes live, then Something like 40 to 45 319s by Dec 2016 by when Manchester to Blackpool/Wigan will have all been wired, I've suggested that Northern could loose its 323s to LM with an equivalent number of 319s to Northern bringing the total up to around 60 by Dec 2017 then when the Trans Pennine wiring from Manchester to Leeds and York is done by Dec 2018, that requirement could be up to around 80 units, especially if the chance to replace the 321/322s is taken, meaning that Northern is close to having a requirement for all 86 units.
 

pemma

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Any 319 to GW will only be temporary now the requirement for fast lime running and so 110mph running is needed. There was a mention of procurement of new EMUs for these lines in the FGW direct award however this has been withdrawn with the plan being to use 387s I believe.

The Network Rail CP5 plans (dated April 2014) say that it is envisaged 319s would be used on Thames Valley with the possibility of being replaced by 110mph capable trains in CP6 (post-April 2019.) The plan to order new EMUs from the outset looks as dead in the water as the idea of Northern sending their 323s to LM and getting new EMUs in lieu.
 

sprinterguy

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Northern will need way more than 26 319s, potentially. I tried to review this in the following thread, which does need updating now.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934
14 319s due by mid 2015, as we know, more required when Preston-Blackpool goes live, then Something like 40 to 45 319s by Dec 2016 by when Manchester to Blackpool/Wigan will have all been wired, I've suggested that Northern could loose its 323s to LM with an equivalent number of 319s to Northern bringing the total up to around 60 by Dec 2017 then when the Trans Pennine wiring from Manchester to Leeds and York is done by Dec 2018, that requirement could be up to around 80 units, especially if the chance to replace the 321/322s is taken, meaning that Northern is close to having a requirement for all 86 units.
Fair enough, I didn't have any solid numbers to base my theory on, so your detailed posting in that other thread is very useful.

Looking solely at the North West electrification sections of that post, I suspect however that in reality the total number of 319s eventually operated by Northern might be rather more conservative than your estimations (Though still more than my suggested 26 units):
May 2014; North West Electrification
Event; Manchester-WCML link wired, 10x class 350/4s introduced on Manchester-Edinburgh & Glasgow.
Effect ; 7x class 185s released for additional Newcastle to Liverpool services. No cascade to other TOCs.
Issues; None Noted.

Dec 2014; North West Electrification
Event; Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport, Liverpool LS to Wigan NW & Liverpool LS to Warrington BQ plus Liverpool LS to (Ordsall Lane) & Manchester Victoria routes wired.
Effect; At least 12x DMU released (3, 4, 2 & 3 diagrams respectively), although likely to be more (up to 16) as some diagrams are currently pairs. Current Liverpool LS to Stalybridge hourly services, replaced by half-hourly to Manchester Victoria (5 diagrams?) and/or Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport frequency doubled to half-hourly. Potential for Liverpool LS-Blackpool services to be cut back to Preston, allowing EMU operation (extra 4 diagrams required).
Issues; Availability of EMUs not confirmed, assumed 6x class 319s ex-Thameslink available, but potentially more (unconfirmed) units required. Service pattern changes not confirmed.

May 2016; North West Electrification
Event; Blackpool North to Preston
Effect; At least 4x DMU released (likely to be more as some diagrams are currently pairs) if service pattern of Liverpool LS-Blackpool direct not revised when Liverpool LS-Wigan wired in Dec 2014.
Issues; Availability of EMUs not confirmed, assumed batch of 29 class 319s ex-Thameslink, displaced by TSGN class 387s by December 2015, whilst service pattern changes not confirmed.

Dec 2016; North West Electrification
Event; Oxenholme to Windermere
Effect; At least 1x class 185 released. Possible transfer to Northern franchise and operated by class 319s.
Issues; Availability of replacement EMUs not confirmed, assumed 2 extra class 319s ex-Thameslink. Service pattern changes including possible franchise/operator alterations not confirmed.

Dec 2016; North West Electrification
Event; Preston-Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge & Guide Bridge-Stalybridge routes wired.
Effect on Northern; Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria & Preston to Hazel Grove services converted to EMU operations, with at least 4 diagrams respectively on each route above, with up to 10x DMUs displaced, but likely to be more as some diagrams are currently pairs, plus peak time extras.
Effect on TPX; Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services (4 diagrams) able to be operated by EMUs. Possible transfer to Northern franchise and operated by class 319s.
Issues; Availability of EMUs not confirmed, assumed additional class 319s ex-Thameslink, of which up to 44x units are expected to be displaced by class 700s between Dec 2015 and Dec 2016. Service pattern changes not confirmed. Northern class 319 fleet potentially up to around 45 units.
Keeping a running total of 319 diagrams as we go, a more conservative tally might offer:

May 2014; North West Electrification – 0 x 319 diagrams
Event; Manchester-WCML link wired, 10x class 350/4s introduced on Manchester-Edinburgh & Glasgow.
Effect ; 7x class 185s released for additional Newcastle to Liverpool services. No cascade to other TOCs.

Dec 2014; North West Electrification – 12 x 319 diagrams (Plus others unconfirmed)
Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport – 3 diagrams
Liverpool LS to Wigan NW - 4 diagrams
Liverpool LS to Warrington BQ – 2 diagrams
Liverpool LS to (Ordsall Lane) & Manchester Victoria – 3 diagrams
Current Liverpool LS to Stalybridge hourly services, replaced by half-hourly to Manchester Victoria (5 diagrams?) and/or Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport frequency doubled to half-hourly. Potential for Liverpool LS-Blackpool services to be cut back to Preston, allowing EMU operation (extra 4 diagrams required).

May 2016; North West Electrification – 16 x 319 diagrams
Event; Blackpool North to Preston – 4 diagrams

Dec 2016; North West Electrification – 18 x 319 diagrams
Oxenholme to Windermere – 2 diagrams
Effect; At least 1x class 185 released. Possible transfer to Northern franchise and operated by class 319s.

Dec 2016; North West Electrification – 30 x 319 diagrams
Preston-Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge & Guide Bridge-Stalybridge routes wired.
Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria – 4 diagrams
Preston to Hazel Grove services – 4 diagrams
Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services – 4 diagrams

So 30 diagrams, plus admittedly the "others unconfirmed" bit under the December 2014 requirement which could bring the total closer to 40. Hopefully, at this stage somebody within Northern Rail has a reasonable idea of how many EMUs the company will actually require by December 2016, but I have not heard any plans mooted recently to replace the 321s and 322s around Leeds, or the 323s around Manchester.
 
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pemma

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Northern will need way more than 26 319s, potentially. I tried to review this in the following thread, which does need updating now.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934

What makes it difficult to work out is we don't know what service pattern revisions will happen and some electrification add-ons are provisional not confirmed.

Also do we assume the plan to make at least some 319s 3 car and run doubled up on busy services is taken up or not? Network Rail have warned that if it isn't taken up then the Bolton corridor will likely continue to have 6 car DMU workings at peak times post-electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dec 2014; North West Electrification – 12 x 319 diagrams (Plus others unconfirmed)
Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport – 3 diagrams
Liverpool LS to Wigan NW - 4 diagrams
Liverpool LS to Warrington BQ – 2 diagrams
Liverpool LS to (Ordsall Lane) & Manchester Victoria – 3 diagrams
Current Liverpool LS to Stalybridge hourly services, replaced by half-hourly to Manchester Victoria (5 diagrams?) and/or Liverpool LS to Manchester Airport frequency doubled to half-hourly. Potential for Liverpool LS-Blackpool services to be cut back to Preston, allowing EMU operation (extra 4 diagrams required).

It's been confirmed that only 2 Manchester Airport-Liverpool diagrams will switch to electric operation from December 2014. I think cutting back Liverpool-Blackpool services at Preston is very unlikely - also most services operate Liverpool South Parkway-Liverpool-Preston-Blackpool.

Dec 2016; North West Electrification – 30 x 319 diagrams
Preston-Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge & Guide Bridge-Stalybridge routes wired.
Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria – 4 diagrams
Preston to Hazel Grove services – 4 diagrams
Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services – 4 diagrams

Here's where complications start arising.

Manchester Airport to Blackpool is currently a TPE route. Currently there aren't any confirmed plans to move routes between franchises or for TPE to operate 319s.

The long term future of Preston-Hazel Grove isn't confirmed. Turning standard pattern services back at Hazel Grove is seen as a wasted path and options are being examined for the services starting/terminating at Hazel Grove to be extended to one of Chinley (Network Rail are to make infrastructure improvements at Chinley to allow for more local trains), Buxton or Sheffield. However, I imagine if that happens we'll instead see an Alderley Edge-Stockport-Preston electric service and there could still be an option for some peak time extras to operate as electric to Hazel Grove.

I have not heard any plans mooted recently to replace the 321s and 322s around Leeds, or the 323s around Manchester.

DfT couldn't give TfGM assurances that 323s would remain with Northern long term but they're have been any plans officially announced for 321s or 323s to leave Northern since the previous government's idea for a new order of 28? x 3 car EMUs for Northern which would have resulted in the 17 x 3 car 323s going to LM and also the 3 x 321s leaving for another operator.
 

158722

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Some valid comments in those last two posts, guys.

My review was an attempt to group together all the various projects and their potential impacts, wouldn't suggest it is totally accurate and the comment about changes in service patterns is very valid, as are the concerns about 4-car EMUs when 6-car would likely to be needed. Bolton to Wigan has since been added to the electrification plans since I did this review, so a couple of extra units required there as well.

Just a few comments. Hasn't it been noted that converting the 319s to 3-car would be relatively expensive given the need to move equipment from the trailer car which would be removed? Also the suggestion of northern 323s to LM is entirely mine, based on the fact that LM will need extra EMUs when the Chase line goes live and Bromsgrove extension to Cross city services is finished. These units have to come from somewhere, with 323s being the obvious choice (well, obvious to me!).

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a hole in the currently planned EMU fleets - Northern, LM, GW, TPE and EMT (for Corby and MML stoppers) will all need extra units and the 86 319 cascade and 29 new build 387s are simply not enough to cover all the requirements. Are we going to get some extra new units or will we see the 315s displaced from EA added into the mix?
 

sd0733

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Not sure if this would be possible but Instead of converting the 319s to 3-car in order to make 6 car operation would it not be possible simply to put 319s on glossop/hadfield services pushing them up from 3 to 4 car and put the displaced 323s as 6-car formations on the bolton corridor therefore everyone gains and no expensive conversions of units. Could well be a reason why this is not possible though!
 

pemma

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Also the suggestion of northern 323s to LM is entirely mine, based on the fact that LM will need extra EMUs when the Chase line goes live and Bromsgrove extension to Cross city services is finished. These units have to come from somewhere, with 323s being the obvious choice (well, obvious to me!

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a hole in the currently planned EMU fleets - Northern, LM, GW, TPE and EMT (for Corby and MML stoppers) will all need extra units and the 86 319 cascade and 29 new build 387s are simply not enough to cover all the requirements. Are we going to get some extra new units or will we see the 315s displaced from EA added into the mix?

There is also the idea of new trains being ordered for TPE Scottish services which will allow for Liverpool/Manchester-Scotland portion workings and could have new trains for North TPE added to the same order.

With TPE they'll be some services which could utilise 110mph running and others that can't so maybe a mixed fleet could be justified?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure if this would be possible but Instead of converting the 319s to 3-car in order to make 6 car operation would it not be possible simply to put 319s on glossop/hadfield services pushing them up from 3 to 4 car and put the displaced 323s as 6-car formations on the bolton corridor therefore everyone gains and no expensive conversions of units. Could well be a reason why this is not possible though!

Porterbrook said:
The Class 319 was designed in the standard
configuration of 4 x 20 metre vehicles which is suitable
for the vast majority of EMU duties in London and the
South East. Recognising that some areas require 3
and 6-car formations to fit platform lengths Porterbrook
has commissioned a detailed feasibility study into
converting the units to 3-cars which has identified the
detail of work required and provided a budget price.

The items to be moved are: -
1. Item Reference Item
2. Motor Alternator Set
3. Motor Alternator Set Inductor (Choke) (MSL)
4. Motor Alternator Set Resistor Box (MPZ)
5. Auxiliary Supply Case (Type 11SF020B2)
6. Auxiliary Control Case (Type 11SF021B2)
7. Auxiliary Transformer (AT)
8. Compressor
9. Battery Box (and associated battery fuse box)
10. Lighting Changeover Switches (LCS1 & LCS2)
11. Shore Supply Sockets No.1 and No.2
12. Compressor Resistors (CZ & CDZ)
13. Heating and Compressor Fuses, in end cupboard
14. 750V Connection Panel, in end cupboard
15. Control & Toilet Panel (Type 23CP135B2), in end
cupboard
16. BD1, BD2 & BD3 diodes, in end cupboard
17. Radio Equipment Connection Panel
18. Radio Equipment and Aerial (where fitted)
19. Main Reservoir
20. Main Reservoir Isolating Cock (MRIC)
21. Main Reservoir Pipe Reducing Valve
22. Main Reservoir Pipe Connection Point
23. Main Reservoir Monitor Point

Converting the units to 3-cars improves their power to
weight ratio and ideally would be combined with new
traction described above to improve starting tractive
effort. This would provide better performance on
diagrams with frequent stops. Re-gearing to 75 mph
maximum speed is also recommended to optimise
performance on inner-suburban diagrams.

The last bit seems to be relevant to Glossop services.
 

sprinterguy

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Also the suggestion of northern 323s to LM is entirely mine, based on the fact that LM will need extra EMUs when the Chase line goes live and Bromsgrove extension to Cross city services is finished. These units have to come from somewhere, with 323s being the obvious choice (well, obvious to me!).
It does make a lot of sense, even moreso before the transfer of the Walsall to Wolverhampton services to primarily (entirely?) 350 operation was announced. It does indeed look like there will be a few gaps in the requirment for additional EMUs before the end of the decade.

For example, I think that the introduction of 350/3s should allow the existing LM 323 fleet to cover the Bromsgrove services with some tightening of diagrams and maintenance schedules (I know of nothing else in the pipeline before Bromsgrove is due to come online), but there is definitely a deficit by the time that the Chase line is electrified. Based on existing times, an hourly electric Chase line service would require two additional diagrams as a simple extension of the current Wolverhampton to Walsall electric services (Assuming that the current 170 worked Rugeley and Walsall services "fast" to New Street were withdrawn entirely), more for a half hourly service of course, but I'm starting to digress.
 

158722

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It does make a lot of sense, even moreso before the transfer of the Walsall to Wolverhampton services to primarily (entirely?) 350 operation was announced. It does indeed look like there will be a few gaps in the requirment for additional EMUs before the end of the decade.

For example, I think that the introduction of 350/3s should allow the existing LM 323 fleet to cover the Bromsgrove services with some tightening of diagrams and maintenance schedules (I know of nothing else in the pipeline before Bromsgrove is due to come online), but there is definitely a deficit by the time that the Chase line is electrified. Based on existing times, an hourly electric Chase line service would require two additional diagrams as a simple extension of the current Wolverhampton to Walsall electric services (Assuming that the current 170 worked Rugeley and Walsall services "fast" to New Street were withdrawn entirely), more for a half hourly service of course, but I'm starting to digress.

Redditch branch improvements this year will essentially need an extra pair of 323s, due to a Longbridge terminator being extended, hence covered by the extra 350/3s covering the Walsall turns plus allowing an extra 6-car set to be diagrammed as 3 323s will be displaced by the 350s. Bromsgrove will require an extra diagram to cover the longer services, hence another pair of 323s, which at present, do not exist. The Chase line seems to require four diagrams to maintain even the current diagrams, let alone any service increases, such as Walsall to Wolves direct (which was withdrawn a good few years ago), then there will be the Nuneaton-Coventry(-Leamington?) services to cover by around 2018/19.

History suggests the LM franchise pulls quite a bit of weight, look at the new 172s and 350s for proof of this, so I can see them getting first call on future moves with Northern and others picking up the rest...

As for the extra TPE services, replacing the 350/4s with a uniform fleet of 387s to cover Man/Liv-Scotland and the Liverpool-Newcastle/Hull axis would seem logical - 29 387s won't be enough, but if the option for an extra 34 (?) is taken up this would be more than enough, with the balance to EMT for Corby services, something which seems to have been mentioned in documents relating to the MML wiring.
 

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Not sure if this would be possible but Instead of converting the 319s to 3-car in order to make 6 car operation would it not be possible simply to put 319s on glossop/hadfield services pushing them up from 3 to 4 car and put the displaced 323s as 6-car formations on the bolton corridor therefore everyone gains and no expensive conversions of units. Could well be a reason why this is not possible though!

Good point. I guess a wider question is, once a bigger electrified network is complete in the northwest, is there any reason for Northern to keep dedicated South Manchester (Class 323) and North Manchester / Liverpool (Class 319) EMU fleets?

Maintenance cycles and crew training aside, in the medium term is there any reason not to have Class 319s appearing on Wilmslow or Stoke to Piccadilly runs, or Class 323s working Stalybridge-Liverpool, or Liverpool-Wigan if capacity and diagrams require it?
 

edwin_m

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Maintenance cycles and crew training aside, in the medium term is there any reason not to have Class 319s appearing on Wilmslow or Stoke to Piccadilly runs, or Class 323s working Stalybridge-Liverpool, or Liverpool-Wigan if capacity and diagrams require it?

Don't some south side diagrams need the extra acceleration of a 323 to stay ahead of West Coast services? Even if 319s are shortened they still won't have as much acceleration as 323s (1 motored car in 3 versus 2 in 3).
 

The Planner

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The 319s will be cleared out to Hadfield/Glossop and to Stoke/Crewe but only for out of the ordinary running, it isnt planned to use them for normal services that way.
 

pemma

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The 319s will be cleared out to Hadfield/Glossop and to Stoke/Crewe but only for out of the ordinary running, it isnt planned to use them for normal services that way.

Someone said fairly recently than 319s can't be used to Glossop in 4 car formation as there's some platforms on that line which are around 75m in length.

There's also concern about acceleration if 319s were used on Stoke services or peak time services which call at Heaton Chapel or Levenshulme which are timed to be operated by 323s (except the Alderley Edge turnbacks.)

Currently DMUs never operate to Glossop or Stoke. The other week when a 323 failed on a Glossop service, a 323 was nabbed off an Alderley Edge working to replace it with a 150 taking the 323's place on the Alderley Edge working.
 
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158722

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Don't some south side diagrams need the extra acceleration of a 323 to stay ahead of West Coast services? Even if 319s are shortened they still won't have as much acceleration as 323s (1 motored car in 3 versus 2 in 3).

Hasn't there been comments made about DfT wanting the Stoke stoppers to be integrated in a new Birmingham-Manchester service, operated by LM? Presumably this would be operated by 350s, negating any issues with using 319s to Stoke and giving more weight to my thoughts about more 323s to LM (323s back on to the Walsall-Wolves, displacing 350s to the new Brum-Manchesters).
 

Jonny

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Some valid comments in those last two posts, guys.

My review was an attempt to group together all the various projects and their potential impacts, wouldn't suggest it is totally accurate and the comment about changes in service patterns is very valid, as are the concerns about 4-car EMUs when 6-car would likely to be needed. Bolton to Wigan has since been added to the electrification plans since I did this review, so a couple of extra units required there as well.

Just a few comments. Hasn't it been noted that converting the 319s to 3-car would be relatively expensive given the need to move equipment from the trailer car which would be removed? Also the suggestion of northern 323s to LM is entirely mine, based on the fact that LM will need extra EMUs when the Chase line goes live and Bromsgrove extension to Cross city services is finished. These units have to come from somewhere, with 323s being the obvious choice (well, obvious to me!).

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a hole in the currently planned EMU fleets - Northern, LM, GW, TPE and EMT (for Corby and MML stoppers) will all need extra units and the 86 319 cascade and 29 new build 387s are simply not enough to cover all the requirements. Are we going to get some extra new units or will we see the 315s displaced from EA added into the mix?

Will there also be some units displaced from the GN side of FCC/TSGN once the Thameslink services take over from existing FCC services on GN routes? Not all of them, just some...
 

pemma

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Hasn't there been comments made about DfT wanting the Stoke stoppers to be integrated in a new Birmingham-Manchester service, operated by LM? Presumably this would be operated by 350s, negating any issues with using 319s to Stoke and giving more weight to my thoughts about more 323s to LM (323s back on to the Walsall-Wolves, displacing 350s to the new Brum-Manchesters).

It's a Network Rail recommended option (in the West Coast RUS.)

However, if it's an all-day hourly Manchester-Stoke-Birmingham service they'll still be the peak time extras on the northern section of the route to run. Currently as well as the standard pattern hourly Manchester-Stoke service there's the following extras:
06:03 Macclesfield-Stoke
06:22 Macclesfield-Manchester Picc
06:30 Stoke-Manchester Picc
07:15 Macclesfield-Manchester Picc
08:06 Macclesfield-Manchester Picc

17:09 Deansgate-Stoke

Would the above be more suitable under Northern or LM? I think the ones in blue would need to remain Northern services but the ones in green could transfer to LM. Transferring the ones in blue wouldn't be an efficient use of units given LM wouldn't have other Manchester area routes.

XC also stop a small selection of services at Congleton which may not work if half the XC services are diverted via Crewe.
 
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Class377/5

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Will there also be some units displaced from the GN side of FCC/TSGN once the Thameslink services take over from existing FCC services on GN routes? Not all of them, just some...

Only the 317/321 fleets, total of 29 units.
 

samuelmorris

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Since there's no DC requirement up there, has there been any consideration made to working the 319s and 321s/322s in multiple? I assume it's technically possible, even if it wouldn't be a regular occurrence.
 

Domh245

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Would the DC equipment be removed, or might it be retained for possible usage on the merseyrail network?
 
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