Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Bovverboy]

There were six 319 four car sets outside Allerton Depot yesterday morning at about 10am.

At 10am M/F, sixteen Allerton-based 319s are required for service, and this situation has prevailed for close on two years now. More recently, a seventeenth has been needed in the afternoon peak only, in order to work a Liverpool to Preston train which had been cut back from its previous destination of Blackpool.
When the peak turnout became sixteen, the allocation of 319s to Allerton was twenty, and this continued when the seventeenth was required for service. Within the last few months additional units have arrived ready for the Manchester-Bolton-Preston route going electric, the new total was going to be thirty-two, but units have now arrived which hadn't been on the schedule, so whether these are additional, or replacing others, we can't be sure. Anyway, a total of twenty-five 319s have now operated in service from Allerton, although at least one is temporarily out of action, and there may be one or two others which are unavailable for other reasons. However a situation of sixteen units in service, and six parked on public view at Allerton, is perfectly possible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At 10am M/F, sixteen Allerton-based 319s are required for service, and this situation has prevailed for close on two years now. More recently, a seventeenth has been needed in the afternoon peak only, in order to work a Liverpool to Preston train which had been cut back from its previous destination of Blackpool.
When the peak turnout became sixteen, the allocation of 319s to Allerton was twenty, and this continued when the seventeenth was required for service. Within the last few months additional units have arrived ready for the Manchester-Bolton-Preston route going electric, the new total was going to be thirty-two, but units have now arrived which hadn't been on the schedule, so whether these are additional, or replacing others, we can't be sure. Anyway, a total of twenty-five 319s have now operated in service from Allerton, although at least one is temporarily out of action, and there may be one or two others which are unavailable for other reasons. However a situation of sixteen units in service, and six parked on public view at Allerton, is perfectly possible.

Once the Blackpool blockade starts, there will be more scope for 319s working to Preston, as none will need to run through to Blackpool.

 

[pemma]

Once the Blackpool blockade starts, there will be more scope for 319s working to Preston, as none will need to run through to Blackpool.

Presuming Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrics are live.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by LNW-GW Joint
Once the Blackpool blockade starts, there will be more scope for 319s working to Preston, as none will need to run through to Blackpool.

At the moment there is only one journey each way Liverpool to Blackpool (M/F), 0757 ex-Liverpool and 1803 ex-Blackpool. On Saturdays there is a second Liverpool to Blackpool journey, since the 1716 ex-Liverpool still runs through.
According to RTT, from 11 November to 9 December (the end of the current tmetable) these journeys will operate between Liverpool and Preston on their existing timings, and will remain diesel-operated (since they are scheduled to interwork with Preston to Victoria/Huddersfield/HazelGrove trains). From 10 December they are shown as operating to Class 319 timings, with an acceleration of about five minutes end to end (as are all the other Liverpool to Preston journeys - at the moment they are still running to diesel schedules). However I can't confirm that all Liverpool to Preston journeys will actually be 319-operated, since it's impossible to follow the duties through.

Presuming Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrics are live.

I'm sure that LNW-GW Joint was concerned specifically about the Liverpool to Blackpool journeys. He referred to the start of the Blackpool blockade, and we know that the Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrification won't be ready by that time.

 

[pemma]

I'm sure that LNW-GW Joint was concerned specifically about the Liverpool to Blackpool journeys. He referred to the start of the Blackpool blockade, and we know that the Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrification won't be ready by that time.

That won't require many additional 319s though as only a couple of through Blackpool services per day as you mentioned. This was due to most of the through services being 'temporarily' suspended so that 319s could be used between Liverpool South Parkway and Preston to free up DMUs to indirectly take the place of the 170s which went from TPE to Chiltern.

 

[Jamesrob637]

free up DMUs to indirectly take the place of the 170s which went from TPE to Chiltern.

Can think of a few diagrams on which these freed-up units would be very useful

 

[pemma]

Can think of a few diagrams on which these freed-up units would be very useful

319s on Liverpool-Preston was so DfT could rob North of England Peter to pay South of England Paul. Even the Manchester Airport to Preston corridor which saw some 4 car 156 workings replacing 3 car 185 workings, saw a peak time 6 car 185 working replaced by a 4 car 156, there were no real winners apart from Chiltern Railways!

 

[lejog]

319s on Liverpool-Preston was so DfT could rob North of England Peter to pay South of England Paul. Even the Manchester Airport to Preston corridor which saw some 4 car 156 workings replacing 3 car 185 workings, saw a peak time 6 car 185 working replaced by a 4 car 156, there were no real winners apart from Chiltern Railways!

Dunno, Halifax and Bradford have a 180 replacing a Pacer, which seems a good deal to me,

 

[deltic08]

Has Northern began to receive cascaded units yet? Someone said September for the first, and we're the 20th of said month now...

Had what is probably my last ride on the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High yesterday by 170. On the return passing Haymarket Depot there was a 170 in Scotrail blue completely devoid of all branding on all three cars. Could this be the first 170 cascading to Northern?
Was also surprised to see wires up on the route between Polmont Junction and Greenhill Upper via Falkirk Grahamston and one line wired when we crossed the Greenhill Lower Junction-Cumbernauld route.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Had what is probably my last ride on the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High yesterday by 170. On the return passing Haymarket Depot there was a 170 in Scotrail blue completely devoid of all branding on all three cars. Could this be the first 170 cascading to Northern?
Was also surprised to see wires up on the route between Polmont Junction and Greenhill Upper via Falkirk Grahamston and one line wired when we crossed the Greenhill Lower Junction-Cumbernauld route.

Would be amazing if it was! The Turbostar is a good product and suffers only from the issue affecting lots of stock built around the era - just needs 1-2 more carriages

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure that LNW-GW Joint was concerned specifically about the Liverpool to Blackpool journeys. He referred to the start of the Blackpool blockade, and we know that the Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrification won't be ready by that time.

Indeed.
The Sunday Liverpool-Blackpool service is still DMU and could go electric during the blockade.
At long last, a second Sunday service to Wigan starts on 10 December.
For what it's worth, both services via Wigan are timed for 319s in the new timetable.

 

[pemma]

Dunno, Halifax and Bradford have a 180 replacing a Pacer, which seems a good deal to me,

Apart from a service was truncated to do that, so not that good for the people who now have to change.

 

[sd0733]

Had what is probably my last ride on the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High yesterday by 170. On the return passing Haymarket Depot there was a 170 in Scotrail blue completely devoid of all branding on all three cars. Could this be the first 170 cascading to Northern?
Was also surprised to see wires up on the route between Polmont Junction and Greenhill Upper via Falkirk Grahamston and one line wired when we crossed the Greenhill Lower Junction-Cumbernauld route.

I believe thats 170417-420 in plain blue which are the units Southern were supposed to get. Fairly sure these aren't the ones heading to Northern. They were recently painted blue and have never had branding

 

[pemma]

I believe thats 170417-420 in plain blue which are the units Southern were supposed to get. Fairly sure these aren't the ones heading to Northern. They were recently painted blue and have never had branding

The units Southern secured were all Eversholt 170s, Northern are getting Porterbrook 170s.

 

[Bovverboy]

Arriving at Piccadilly at about 1850 yesterday evening I was surprised to find 319379 in platform 10 and not obviously going anywhere. Presuming it should have been on Airport stoppers I waited for the 1910 ex-Airport arrival and, lo and behold, it was 323232. Tracing back on RTT revealed that 319379 had developed a fault precluding it from operating the 0714 ex-Picc (it had managed one return journey by that time). The 0746 Airport-Picc, 0814 Picc-Airport, and 0845 Airport-Picc were cancelled through 'late arrival of an inbound journey', which wasn't really true, of course. 323232 was apparently brought from Stockport CMD as 5H74, 0835 Stockport CMD to Manchester Picc, and it took up service on Airport stoppers from 0914 (two 323s usually stand spare at Stockport CMD on a Saturday).
323232 departed on the 1914 Picc-Airport and, knowing that the 1945 return was scheduled to run into platform 10 at Picc I was hoping I might witness the spectacle of it dragging away 319379. In the event, however, it departed for Stockport CMD at 2021.
319379 later departed for Stockport CMD at 2158, this was fractionally before the nominal time of this regular move. So whatever had stopped 319379 from continuing in service didn't make it immobile.

P.S. If 319379 had been driveable all along it's a shame that it couldn't have been taken back to Stockport CMD earlier, instead of occupying valuable platform space at Picc for 14+ hours.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is anybody else getting the impression that the 319s still aren't as reliable as Northern would have liked? Might have been worth spending a little more and ordering more 4-car 331s; surely the reliability and comfort would've paid off before long?

 

[Hophead]

Is anybody else getting the impression that the 319s still aren't as reliable as Northern would have liked?

Slinging a diesel engine under one of the coaches should fix that then

 

[Bovverboy]

The Sunday Liverpool-Blackpool service is still DMU and could go electric during the blockade.

Read: Will definitely go electric during the blockade.

P.S. Does anyone know whether the St Helens to Preston service was DMU or EMU operated, yesterday (Sat)? If EMU, where were the units reversing, at the St Helens end?

 

[notlob.divad]

Read: Will definitely go electric during the blockade.

P.S. Does anyone know whether the St Helens to Preston service was DMU or EMU operated, yesterday (Sat)? If EMU, where were the units reversing, at the St Helens end?

The Crossover in St. Helens Central was recently wired as documented on the Liverpool-Manchester Electrification thread. So my guess would be there, on the grounds of 'why bother doing it otherwise?'

However RTT indicates arrival on Platform 2 and departure from Platform 1, which to me indicates use of the Pilkington Oil siding cross over further down the line.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
P.S. Does anyone know whether the St Helens to Preston service was DMU or EMU operated, yesterday (Sat)? If EMU, where were the units reversing, at the St Helens end?

The Crossover in St. Helens Central was recently wired as documented on the Liverpool-Manchester Electrification thread. So my guess would be there, on the grounds of 'why bother doing it otherwise?'

However RTT indicates arrival on Platform 2 and departure from Platform 1, which to me indicates use of the Pilkington Oil siding cross over further down the line.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that the St Helens crossover had been wired, but the Liverpool-Manchester Electrification thread isn't one I routinely follow.
The justification for wiring the crossover was given as providing a facility for electrics to arrive from the north and return to the north, during periods of Roby/Huyton works, but surely, if the Pilkington crossover is available, that doesn't make sense. Does the signalling permit a northbound departure from Platform 2, using the crossover? It would seem to me that the usefulness of wiring the crossover is to provide a facility for electrics to arrive from Liverpool and return there.
Is the headshunt wired/available for use?
It would be good if someone could confirm that yesterday's St Helens to Wigan/Preston service did indeed use electrics, although RTT implied that it did, which is why I asked. Had the service used diesels, then 319379 (which expired after one round trip Picc-Airport-Picc) would have been the only Allerton-based 319 in use yesterday. In the event, it would appear that a further three units were employed doing Preston-St Helens-Wigan-St Helens-Preston.

 

[185143]

St. Helens-Wigan was DMUs today apparently. No idea about yesterday. Don't forget any 319s that are out will have to take a big detour to Allerton... (if they're even cleared for Wigan-Crewe?)

 

[Bovverboy]

St. Helens-Wigan was DMUs today apparently. No idea about yesterday. Don't forget any 319s that are out will have to take a big detour to Allerton... (if they're even cleared for Wigan-Crewe?)

Today the service ran to & from Blackpool North, hence the diesels.

The service yesterday appears to have been provided by three 319s stabled at Preston Carriage Sidings - that's the usual two, plus a third which ran 2017 ECS (Friday) to there from Wigan North Western. That was presumably the unit off the 1832 Lime Street-Wigan NW, which would normally return to Liverpool on the back of the 2003 Wigan NW-Liverpool.

A unit is scheduled to run ECS from Preston Carriage Sidings to Allerton after close of service tomorrow (Monday), to be replaced by one the other way in the very early hours of Tuesday. The route is via Parkside Junction, Piccadilly, Wilmslow, & Crewe, so the implication is that 319s are not cleared for Warrington-Crewe. (They could get from Wigan to Warrington).
A 319 to be supplied by Allerton daily (this week) for the Manchester Victoria to St Helens Junction service is routed Crewe, Wilmslow, Piccadilly, and Eccles (reversal).

 

[childwallblues]

Is anybody else getting the impression that the 319s still aren't as reliable as Northern would have liked? Might have been worth spending a little more and ordering more 4-car 331s; surely the reliability and comfort would've paid off before long?

They are much more reliable than when they first arrived.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
According to RTT and Phil Wieland's 'Open Rail' website the Blackburn stabling facility is scheduled to become active from Saturday 11 November, which is a shade earlier than had been said. On that day three sets are due to run out, but six to return. On other days five outward and return seems more typical. There is a bit of variation, partly because of intermittent bus substitution, and partly (probably) because not all journeys have been uploaded yet.

That ties in with the start of the Blackpool blockade so makes sense.

Two stabling points to see an increase in activity from the same date are Preston Croft Street Sidings and Leyland British Leyland.

 

[notlob.divad]

A unit is scheduled to run ECS from Preston Carriage Sidings to Allerton after close of service tomorrow (Monday), to be replaced by one the other way in the very early hours of Tuesday. The route is via Parkside Junction, Piccadilly, Wilmslow, & Crewe, so the implication is that 319s are not cleared for Warrington-Crewe. (They could get from Wigan to Warrington).
A 319 to be supplied by Allerton daily (this week) for the Manchester Victoria to St Helens Junction service is routed Crewe, Wilmslow, Piccadilly, and Eccles (reversal).

I am pretty sure the 319s are cleared for Warrington - Crewe as when the wall collapsed onto the Line in the Lime Street Cutting a couple ran that way to exchange units. However I wonder if it is to do with Crew (not Crewe) signing the routes. I seem to remember they where driven by DRS or someone last time, where as pressumably via Wilmslow and Piccadilly it can be taken by regular Northern drivers

 

[pemma]

I am pretty sure the 319s are cleared for Warrington - Crewe as when the wall collapsed onto the Line in the Lime Street Cutting a couple ran that way to exchange units. However I wonder if it is to do with Crew (not Crewe) signing the routes. I seem to remember they where driven by DRS or someone last time, where as pressumably via Wilmslow and Piccadilly it can be taken by regular Northern drivers

A train using a route for an ECS doesn't automatically mean it's cleared for passenger operations on that route, especially if the ECS movement was at a low speed.

 

[notlob.divad]

A train using a route for an ECS doesn't automatically mean it's cleared for passenger operations on that route, especially if the ECS movement was at a low speed.

That maye so, but the premise of the question was 319 ECS moves between Allerton and Wigan/Preston.

 

[50032]

I seem to remember they where driven by DRS or someone last time, where as pressumably via Wilmslow and Piccadilly it can be taken by regular Northern drivers

The ECS moves this week are crewed by Northern drivers from various depots.

 

[notlob.divad]

I will answer what I can.

The justification for wiring the crossover was given as providing a facility for electrics to arrive from the north and return to the north, during periods of Roby/Huyton works, but surely, if the Pilkington crossover is available, that doesn't make sense. Does the signalling permit a northbound departure from Platform 2, using the crossover?

Rather than posting the photo I will link to this photo by Robbob2010 (before the cross over was wired). https://www.flickr.com/photos/robbob2010/16779077035/ I believe it shows two shunt signals to depart Northbound from platform 2 either using the cross over to gain access towards Wigan or into the siding. However someone with better knowledge than me could either confirm that or slap me down.

I will add at this point that according to the realtime map available http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livesig/1 Headcodes arrive on Platform 2 at SHC. They then stay locked in the system until the next one arrives and overwrites them. Northbound Services appear a few minutes after departure time in a box heading towards Garswood. It never appears in the Platform 1 box, or in any of the boxes around the Pilkington Oil Sidings.

It would seem to me that the usefulness of wiring the crossover is to provide a facility for electrics to arrive from Liverpool and return there.

It would to me to, but I believe that move is made under the same controls as the Northbound move I detailed above with the ground level indicator by the foot crossing in the distance in the above picture.

Is the headshunt wired/available for use?

Headshunt/siding (I don't know the technical difference) I believe the answer is no to both, it certainly isn't wired.

It would be good if someone could confirm that yesterday's St Helens to Wigan/Preston service did indeed use electrics, although RTT implied that it did, which is why I asked. Had the service used diesels, then 319379 (which expired after one round trip Picc-Airport-Picc) would have been the only Allerton-based 319 in use yesterday. In the event, it would appear that a further three units were employed doing Preston-St Helens-Wigan-St Helens-Preston.

I am sorry but I cannot help.

 

[samuelmorris]

Anyone know what the WYPTE 321 at Ilford is about?