Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[notlob.divad]

With notes on another forum thread that the LM 350 from Watford is going to be scrapped. Will the 323s / (some of) be going to LM earlier than planned.

In which case could this be why Northern are getting the 319s earlier?

 

[pemma]

With notes on another forum thread that the LM 350 from Watford is going to be scrapped. Will the 323s / (some of) be going to LM earlier than planned.

In which case could this be why Northern are getting the 319s earlier?

The Northern franchise agreement and various press releases state 12 x 319s will join the franchise during 2016 and that the 323s will be released on 1st January 2019. The plan is for those 319s to be 'fully' refurbished before they enter service and also for some to initially be used on Glossop services to release 323s for the Macclesfield enhancements (due to start in December 17) and for C6 examinations on the 323s (also due to start in December 17.)

As far as I know while Porterbrook want LM to take on all the 323s there has been no confirmation from either the franchise or DfT that they will do so. Given what's happening with Anglia there may be various EMU options for LM bidders to consider.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Northern franchise agreement and various press releases state 12 x 319s will join the franchise during 2016 and that the 323s will be released on 1st January 2019. The plan is for those 319s to be 'fully' refurbished before they enter service and also for some to initially be used on Glossop services to release 323s for the Macclesfield enhancements (due to start in December 17) and for C6 examinations on the 323s (also due to start in December 17.)

I am aware of that, my question was more to do with the recent collision and subsequent removal of two EMUs from service if they where looking to get hold of some of Northerns current stock meaning that there will be uses for these 319's sooner than was anticipated.

 

[Mordac]

I am aware of that, my question was more to do with the recent collision and subsequent removal of two EMUs from service if they where looking to get hold of some of Northerns current stock meaning that there will be uses for these 319's sooner than was anticipated.

They might as well get one of the other 40+ 319s from Thameslink that which have no takers yet.

 

[pemma]

I am aware of that, my question was more to do with the recent collision and subsequent removal of two EMUs from service if they where looking to get hold of some of Northerns current stock meaning that there will be uses for these 319's sooner than was anticipated.

It would easier for them to get hold of additional 319s given there's reports about some being put in to storage while getting 323s now would require Northern to agree a sublease.

 

[pjm0512]

The Northern franchise agreement and various press releases state 12 x 319s will join the franchise during 2016 and that the 323s will be released on 1st January 2019. The plan is for those 319s to be 'fully' refurbished before they enter service and also for some to initially be used on Glossop services to release 323s for the Macclesfield enhancements (due to start in December 17) and for C6 examinations on the 323s (also due to start in December 17.)

As far as I know while Porterbrook want LM to take on all the 323s there has been no confirmation from either the franchise or DfT that they will do so. Given what's happening with Anglia there may be various EMU options for LM bidders to consider.

So is it likely to see 319s on the Glossop Line by next year?

 

[pemma]

So is it likely to see 319s on the Glossop Line by next year?

Provided the Ordsall Chord is open by next December then yes that is the plan but they will be from the pool of 5 which will be returned once the last batch of 331s are delivered

 

[158722]

Postings elsewhere suggesting that all of the 13 GN 321/4s (401-410/418-420) are now destined for Anglia instead of 317337-348 and 6 of the 321s. Those 317s heading for Northern instead... Discuss.

 

[pemma]

Postings elsewhere suggesting that all of the 13 GN 321/4s (401-410/418-420) are now destined for Anglia instead of 317337-348 and 6 of the 321s. Those 317s heading for Northern instead... Discuss.

Says who? And to do what? Northern have surplus 319s at the moment.

 

[8J]

I've only seen this from one post on another Railway forum. Personally I'd take it with a pinch of salt. One rumour I heard a while back was GN313's were destined for Northern.... that ain't gonna happen

 

[pemma]

I've only seen this from one post on another Railway forum. Personally I'd take it with a pinch of salt. One rumour I heard a while back was GN313's were destined for Northern.... that ain't gonna happen

Just seen that post. If we believe all of the posts on that forum then the 323s would have gone to LM this autumn plus the Scotrail 170s will be joining GWR in 2018 not Northern.

 

[87015]

Well the 317s not going to GA bit is correct on the internal grapevine...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Considering all the problems we are currently having with not enough electrification being done i fail to see how Northern need any more EMUs! Unless they are planning on running new services or the 323s are leaving earlier than planned and the 331s not arriving as early as planned?

 

[Mordac]

If only the railway was as good at improvement work as they are at creating rumours

 

[pemma]

Considering all the problems we are currently having with not enough electrification being done i fail to see how Northern need any more EMUs! Unless they are planning on running new services or the 323s are leaving earlier than planned and the 331s not arriving as early as planned?

I thought Arriva found the only 323 route they could use 319s on was Glossop and that was based on the number of TPE services through Guide Bridge being less than what they are currently. I can't see the 317s performing better than 319s.

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought Arriva found the only 323 route they could use 319s on was Glossop and that was based on the number of TPE services through Guide Bridge being less than what they are currently. I can't see the 317s performing better than 319s.

Maybe Northern could remove the TCO cars from the 317s to create 3-car, standard class only, units for the Glossop/Hadfield line? Then they would have better performance than 319s and platform lengthening could be put off for a few years.

 

[pemma]

Maybe Northern could remove the TCO cars from the 317s to create 3-car, standard class only, units for the Glossop/Hadfield line? Then they would have better performance than 319s and platform lengthening could be put off for a few years.

Would they be able to cope with peak time loadings? Some people say the peak time services are crowded and a 3 car 317 would be almost 15% shorter.

 

[Class 170101]

Why give Northern yet another traction type to learn and maintain? Surely they have enough with the 319s without 317s to learn too.

 

[mwmbwls]

The Northern 323s are not confirmed as going to LM. It was an option DfT looked at almost 10 years ago and Porterbrook wanted to resurrect but neither LM or DfT have confirmed the 323s will go that way once they get released by Northern on 1st January 2019. With Anglia releasing a whole load of modern EMUs which will presumably be available to LM bidders Porterbrook might have shot themselves in the foot!

The Northern franchise agreement and various press releases state 12 x 319s will join the franchise during 2016 and that the 323s will be released on 1st January 2019. The plan is for those 319s to be 'fully' refurbished before they enter service and also for some to initially be used on Glossop services to release 323s for the Macclesfield enhancements (due to start in December 17) and for C6 examinations on the 323s (also due to start in December 17.)

As far as I know while Porterbrook want LM to take on all the 323s there has been no confirmation from either the franchise or DfT that they will do so. Given what's happening with Anglia there may be various EMU options for LM bidders to consider.

Will the 323’s still be released by ATN on the 1st January 2019? Is there any possibility of West Midlands 323’s coming north following the afore suggested transfer of modern EMU’s from Anglia to the West Midlands. Faster acceleration than 319’s could ease congestion at pinch points and consolidation of the Porterbrook 323 fleet would/should lead to the economy of scale cost savings.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would they be able to cope with peak time loadings? Some people say the peak time services are crowded and a 3 car 317 would be almost 15% shorter.

They could be fitted with a metro style interior with lots of standing room. The journey time is similar to the Metrolink lines out of Manchester. A 60m EMU is longer than a double M5000 tram.

 

[pemma]

They could be fitted with a metro style interior with lots of standing room. The journey time is similar to the Metrolink lines out of Manchester. A 60m EMU is longer than a double M5000 tram.

Would that be cost effective to do? I know Northern are doing that to 32 of the class 333 vehicles but they could have up to 20 years life in them after they are refurbished. The 317s are only slightly newer than the Merseyrail EMUs which are coming up for replacement soon.

 

[deltic08]

Why give Northern yet another traction type to learn and maintain? Surely they have enough with the 319s without 317s to learn too.

Better reduced to 3-car 317s and introduced asap on Manchester-Glossop and before Manchester-Wigan/Blackpool is energised. I thought 2x3 cars is what everybody wanted especially with through gangways. Send the 319s back down south.

 

[pemma]

Better reduced to 3-car 317s and introduced asap on Manchester-Glossop and before Manchester-Wigan/Blackpool is energised. I thought 2x3 cars is what everybody wanted especially with through gangways. Send the 319s back down south.

The 317s have 20m carriages so you would need 4+3 to get a formation as long as 2 x 185s. Then you have the issue of the internal quality compared to 185s.

 

[adrock1976]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously, but in regard to the Class 319s being dual voltage, are they too tall for the Mersey Tunnel?

 

[BurtonM]

The 317s have 20m carriages so you would need 4+3 to get a formation as long as 2 x 185s. Then you have the issue of the internal quality compared to 185s.

I fail to see how 185s are relevant in this argument as they don't serve the Hadfield line.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would that be cost effective to do? I know Northern are doing that to 32 of the class 333 vehicles but they could have up to 20 years life in them after they are refurbished. The 317s are only slightly newer than the Merseyrail EMUs which are coming up for replacement soon.

Just remove some of the triple seats to create more standing room and put in hanging straps and grab rails instead. No point spending money on a refurbishment just for a stopgap.

 

[deltic08]

The 317s have 20m carriages so you would need 4+3 to get a formation as long as 2 x 185s. Then you have the issue of the internal quality compared to 185s.

It is volume that matters not length. 3+3 modified 317s is not a problem. Surely it is better than 1x319 or 1x323 and they do have through gangways in multiple that all the others do not have.

Additionally, why introduce 185s to the discussion that was all about ac units used on ac fitted or about to be fitted routes. How many seats would a 3-car 317 have and quality could be improved by new carpets and seat covers as happened with cascaded 319s? 317s trump 185s in reduced noise and vibration.

 

[pemma]

Better reduced to 3-car 317s and introduced asap on Manchester-Glossop and before Manchester-Wigan/Blackpool is energised. I thought 2x3 cars is what everybody wanted especially with through gangways. Send the 319s back down south.

It is volume that matters not length. 3+3 modified 317s is not a problem. Surely it is better than 1x319 or 1x323 and they do have through gangways in multiple that all the others do not have.

Additionally, why introduce 185s to the discussion that was all about ac units used on ac fitted or about to be fitted routes. How many seats would a 3-car 317 have and quality could be improved by new carpets and seat covers as happened with cascaded 319s? 317s trump 185s in reduced noise and vibration.

You've got yourself very confused or not explained your idea very well.

The longest trains that can be accommodated on the Glossop/Hadfield route is a 3 car 323 or equivalent. A 4 car 317 or 319 cannot be accommodated but platform lengthening has been scheduled in so that a 4 car 319 and eventually 331s can be accommodated.

Therefore when you said 2 x 3 cars and mentioned Blackpool I presumed you meant using pairs of 3 car 317s on the Bolton corridor. If that's what you meant comparisons to 185s are very relevant as a 7 car 317 formation would be the equivalent length to 6 car 185s and there is a franchise requirement for Blackpool-Airport services to be of a better internal standard than the 185s (ignoring the loss of FC) and the 317 interiors are much worse.

I'm also a bit confused about 'carpets on 319s' as they don't have carpets and as far as I know never have had carpets.

I think your comment about 317s or 319s being quieter than 185s is debatable. The EMUs might not have a noisy diesel engine but they do have doors which make a loud bang when passing other trains at speed, plus not being air conditioned means the windows may be open and if they are the noise generated from that can be louder than the diesel engine and air conditioning system.
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I fail to see how 185s are relevant in this argument as they don't serve the Hadfield line.

He mentioned Blackpool and 6 car EMUs as well and there certainly won't be provision for 6 car EMUs on the Glossop line anytime soon.

 

[adsteamfan]

317s trump 185s in reduced noise and vibration.

I hope that they are quieter than 319s. I live 1/2 mile from N-le-W station on the Chat Moss line and hardly ever heard DMUs as they accelerated away but frequently hear the drone of the 319s until they shut off for Earlestown or disappear into the Kenyon cutting. My parents live closer to the line and have remarked about how loud the 'new' trains are.

 

[507021]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously, but in regard to the Class 319s being dual voltage, are they too tall for the Mersey Tunnel?

If I remember correctly, the 319s are the same width and height as the 507s and 508s.