Northern rolling stock plan once new DMU's introduced?

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ryan125hst

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In a couple of years time, Northern will see will see 55 new Class 195 DMU's introduced, made up of 25 two car and 30 three car units. These will be introduced onto Northern Connect routes and will allow the Pacers to be withdrawn.

The question is that Northern currently operate 79 Class 142's and 23 Class 144's. How do 55 new DMU's replace them? Presumably the 3 car units will have more capacity than a four car Pacer, and further electrification works combined with the introduction of the new Class 331's (the electric version of the 195's) will also contribute.

Does anyone know what their rolling stock plan is? I've heard rumours that the Class 153's will be going elsewhere and, if the Wikipedia article is accurate and not a work of fiction, they will go from operating 45 Class 158's to just 8. It also mentions Turbostars which is new to me!

So what will Northern operate where in three years time?
 
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NoMorePacers

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Pacers are either off for scrap or put on a rural branch line and fade into obscurity, Sprinters will probably be scrap or displacement to smaller, less busy routes and ex-Scotrail Turbostars will be acquired by Northern.
 

Emblematic

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The first post in this thread gives a good starting point for the inbound cascades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I looked at Wikipedia, I think the 'future fleet' references are the additions, not the new fleet sizes.
 

edwin_m

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The first post in this thread gives a good starting point for the inbound cascades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I looked at Wikipedia, I think the 'future fleet' references are the additions, not the new fleet sizes.

I make that 49 DMUs cascaded to Northern by 2019, which added to the 55 new ones comes to a lot more than 79. I think the 170s from Scotrail will be three-car and although all the others are presumably two-car each will have more capacity than a Pacer.
 

Robbies

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Is any of the GWR class 150/1, or 150/9 units moving up to Northern when some of them get replaced by class 165/166 trains?
 

PHILIPE

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Is any of the GWR class 150/1, or 150/9 units moving up to Northern when some of them get replaced by class 165/166 trains?

The answer is in the link quoted in Post #4. The 2x150/9s will be split to 3x150/1s by removing the "trailers" and fitting one with a toilet.
 

Haydn1971

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Essentially, the new DMUs enable the Sprinters to be cascaded to replace the Pacers - I'd expect to see the new stuff on connect routes, some 170s and 158s on the remaining connect routes, then a gradual reorganisation that makes some sense to someone - clearly a moving target as electrification spreads
 

sprinterguy

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It will also be interesting to see how the decision to retaine additional 170s north of the border impacts things as this decision was made very recently
As stated in the linked thread, Southern get their remaining five 170s, and Northern get the other sixteen 170s that will be released. Scotrail hold onto the rest.
 

47802

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In a couple of years time, Northern will see will see 55 new Class 195 DMU's introduced, made up of 25 two car and 30 three car units. These will be introduced onto Northern Connect routes and will allow the Pacers to be withdrawn.

The question is that Northern currently operate 79 Class 142's and 23 Class 144's. How do 55 new DMU's replace them? Presumably the 3 car units will have more capacity than a four car Pacer, and further electrification works combined with the introduction of the new Class 331's (the electric version of the 195's) will also contribute.

Does anyone know what their rolling stock plan is? I've heard rumours that the Class 153's will be going elsewhere and, if the Wikipedia article is accurate and not a work of fiction, they will go from operating 45 Class 158's to just 8. It also mentions Turbostars which is new to me!

So what will Northern operate where in three years time?

Well perhaps if you had done a little more research you would have seen that there is significant cascade of existing stock as well as new as indicated above. As you have stated a significant number of DMU services will become EMU on completion of the North West Electrification.


Given northern existing 150 fleet and the additional units to be cascaded its safe to say that a lot of current Northern non connect services currently worked by railbuses will be replaced by 150's. Its been indicated that 158's will work north east connect services, 158's will stay on the S&C but clearly some 156/158 will be relocated from some current services that will become Northern Connect. 170's are indicated as working Leeds-Harrogate-York and services on the Calder valley to Southport by 'JCollins'.
 
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TheKnightWho

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I make that 49 DMUs cascaded to Northern by 2019, which added to the 55 new ones comes to a lot more than 79. I think the 170s from Scotrail will be three-car and although all the others are presumably two-car each will have more capacity than a Pacer.

There are 79 142s, but the 23 144s are also due to be replaced, coming to 102.

There are 104 units (20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s and 55 195s) expected to be at Northern by the time the Pacers have to be withdrawn.
 

aformeruser

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There are 79 142s, but the 23 144s are also due to be replaced, coming to 102.

There are 104 units (20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s and 55 195s) expected to be at Northern by the time the Pacers have to be withdrawn.

There are a number of new/additional services being introduced but then some services will switch to electric so if that's the final list of incoming DMUs I imagine a lot of lines won't get anything more than a 2 car Pacer being replaced by a 2 car Sprinter.
 

Anvil1984

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There are 79 142s, but the 23 144s are also due to be replaced, coming to 102.

There are 104 units (20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s and 55 195s) expected to be at Northern by the time the Pacers have to be withdrawn.

All Northerns 153s are going too however there are a few lines being converted to electric in this time also. However you then have the new Diesel services. Complicated much?
 

61653 HTAFC

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There are 79 142s, but the 23 144s are also due to be replaced, coming to 102.

There are 104 units (20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s and 55 195s) expected to be at Northern by the time the Pacers have to be withdrawn.

All Northerns 153s are going too however there are a few lines being converted to electric in this time also. However you then have the new Diesel services. Complicated much?

The 7x155s are staying I think. Is the abovementioned figure for 158s correct? I'd have thought the North East Connect services alone would require more than 8 units!
 

aformeruser

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Is the abovementioned figure for 158s correct? I'd have thought the North East Connect services alone would require more than 8 units!

As someone said in a previous post it's 8 x 158s from Scotrail on top of what Northern already have.
 

TheBigD

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Would I be right in assuming that the ARN diesel fleet will be...

150/1 = 50
150/2 = 28
155 = 7
156 = 47
158 (2 car) = 45
158 (3 car) = 8
170 (3 car) = 16
195 (2 car) = 25
195 (3 car) = 30

Or have I got my figures wrong???
 

TheKnightWho

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The 7x155s are staying I think. Is the abovementioned figure for 158s correct? I'd have thought the North East Connect services alone would require more than 8 units!

8 additional units. The units I mentioned are units that will be at Northern that aren't currently there now.

People make a good point about additional services, but there is the switch over to electric traction for some routes as well with 12 319s and 43 331s also arriving, with the 17 323s returning to their leasing company. Counting the 153s that are also leaving that leaves us with:

79 142s and 23 144s going to scrap, 18 153s and 17 323s leaving, and 20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s, 55 195s, 12 319s and 43 331s arriving. That's a decrease of 16 diesel units, but an increase of 38 electric units: that leaves 22 additional units in total.

Now, we can't assume that there will be a 1 to 1 replacement on all routes, since the new 319s often replaced diagrams of 2xSprinters, but a minimum of 22 new units freed up easily explains the additional services, with the number likely being a little higher as paired up units are replaced by a single longer one.
 
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aformeruser

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Counting the 153s that are also leaving that leaves us with:

79 142s and 23 144s going to scrap, 18 153s and 17 323s leaving, and 20 150s, 5 156s, 8 158s, 16 170s, 55 195s, 12 319s and 43 331s arriving. That's a decrease of 16 diesel units, but an increase of 38 electric units: that leaves 22 additional units in total.

Only 30 electric units as the 321s and 322s are also leaving with some 6 car EMU workings being introduced in Yorkshire using the new CAF EMUs. Therefore only 14 extra sets in total.
 

43074

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Would I be right in assuming that the ARN diesel fleet will be...

150/1 = 50
150/2 = 28
155 = 7
156 = 47
158 (2 car) = 45
158 (3 car) = 8
170 (3 car) = 16
195 (2 car) = 25
195 (3 car) = 30

Or have I got my figures wrong???

That looks right to me, although I'd add that 24 150s will be reformed to form 16 3-car 150s.

There are also 12 extra 319s which will replace some DMUs from the Bolton route in the next 18 months.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Only 30 electric units as the 321s and 322s are also leaving with some 6 car EMU workings being introduced in Yorkshire using the new CAF EMUs. Therefore only 14 extra sets in total.

I'd expect the West Yorkshire 3-car sets will work some of the quieter services solo between the peaks and on evenings and Sundays.
 

TheKnightWho

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That looks right to me, although I'd add that 24 150s will be reformed to form 16 3-car 150s.

There are also 12 extra 319s which will replace some DMUs from the Bolton route in the next 18 months.

What is happening to the 4 185s currently being used?
 

aformeruser

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What is happening to the 4 185s currently being used?

There's an additional hourly TPE Piccadilly-Leeds service starting in December 2017 plus an extension of Manchester Airport-York to Newcastle which needs to be covered. However, the former should allow a few Northern 142s/150s to be freed up.
 
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43074

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What is happening to the 4 185s currently being used?

Being completely honest, I'm not sure. I'm sure more will emerge regarding that arrangement as more information about TPE's rolling stock plans is released. Bear in mind though they will need to find a replacement for the 4 170s from July this year, and that's before the increase in frequency pointed out by jcollins on the core TPE route from December 2017.

I wouldn't be surprised if more loco haulage features somewhere, and well before the December 2017 timetable change...

Wasn't there some reference to some of the 158s being reformed as well?

Is there any chance you could provide a link (or otherwise) to that? I haven't heard that from elsewhere, although it is entirely plausible given the large fleet of 158s Northern will have.
 

aformeruser

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Is there any chance you could provide a link (or otherwise) to that? I haven't heard that from elsewhere, although it is entirely plausible given the large fleet of 158s Northern will have.

It's what someone posted on a forum. I've not seen it anywhere else.
 

507021

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Would I be right in assuming that the ARN diesel fleet will be...
(quote trimmed)

There are 16 Class 158 carriages due to arrive from Abellio ScotRail, which as has been said previously, some of these will be converted to 3 car units. As there's sixteen carriages then there will be four 3 car (twelve carriages) and two 2 car units (four carriages). 43074 has said that 24 of the 150s are to be reformed into sixteen 3 car units, so that will presumably see 24 150/2 carriages (twelve units overall) inserted into the middle of 24 150/1s.

(Fleet calculations were incorrect, so have been removed)
 
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TheBigD

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There are 16 Class 158 carriages due to arrive from Abellio ScotRail, which as has been said previously, some of these will be converted to 3 car units. As there's sixteen carriages then there will be four 3 car (twelve carriages) and two 2 car units (four carriages). 43074 has said that 24 of the 150s are to be reformed into sixteen 3 car units, so that will presumably see 24 150/2 carriages (twelve units overall) inserted into the middle of 24 150/1s.

The ARN fleet should look like this.

Diesel multiple units (242).
150 - 26 150/1, 16 150/2 and 24 150/9(?) (66).
155 - 7.
156 - 47.
158 - 37 158/0 and 14 158/9 (51).
170/4 - 16.
195 - 25 195/0 and 30 195/1 (55).

Electric multiple units (91).
319 - 20 319/3 and 12 further units (32).
331 - 31 331/0 and 12 331/1 (43).
333 - 16.

If my calculations are correct (please correct them if they aren't), the fleet will be the exact same size as it is today (333), although as 43074 as also said, there will be additional DMUs available for use on other routes as a result of electrification in the not too distant future.

Not sure your class 158 figures add up...
Currently they have 37 x 2 car and 8 x 3 car... They are getting an additional 8 x 2 car (16 vehicles) which even if reformed into more 3 car units doesn't make an additional 6 x 3 car units (18 vehicles)...

Going by what you put at the beginning of the post I'm guessing the final fleet would be 39 x 2 and 12 x 3...
 
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