Northern/Scotrail through services Glasgow/Dumfries-Newcastle - unique?

[70014IronDuke]

Are these through services unique in the sense that the two TOCs take over from each other? I can't think of any other such arrangement? (Maybe there is one on the Wherry lines in the mornings, but that's not quite the same thing, not advertised as through trains between GA and EMT, as far as I know.)

I know these are the remnants of long-time cooperation that started in BR days, but are they mandated by the DfT, or do the two TOCs just continue these through trains because it suits them, either for the extra passengers they generate, or just because the diagrams exist and there seems to be no reason to change them?

Whatever, they seem to be slowly being whittled down. As far as I can see, they are certainly assymetric - there remain today three from the G&SW line to Newcastle, but only one in the opposite direction - the 06.30 from Newcastle. (Presumably the units - if they are Scotrail - return from Newcastle and terminate at Carlisle or what?)

Personally, I'm all for through services, but I wonder how many passengers stay on these trains at Carlisle? Should more effort be made to create more TOC - TOC through trains?

 

[_toommm_]

How does it work in terms or units operating the service? Do Northern or ScotRail give up a unit for it, or is it entirely dependent on what trains are available on the day?

 

[edwin_m]

There was an arrangement for a few years where Wessex (or whoever was in charge at the time) took over some Waterloo trains at Exeter and ran them further west. These were advertised as through workings I think. They stopped when SWT needed the stock elsewhere.

 

[Killingworth]

This route has a very long history, notwithstanding the present operating arrangements.

In the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century the North-East had full employment and large numbers of Irish settled there. I saw a statistic that at least 25% of residents in that area could claim some Irish ancestry, as can I.

Before air travel boat trains from Newcastle to Stranraer could be long and well filled. My grandfather went 'home' that way several times a year and his children were regular travellers before WW2. After the 1950s the family ties became more distant as those newcomers became more settled and unemployment rose, restricting work opportunities. New immigrants from Ireland went elsewhere in the UK. That led to the direct rail route being severed as traffic declined. The current service seems to have been provided as a substitute. I doubt anyone travelling on today's trains will be changing to reach Stranraer for a boat from Cairnryan to Ireland !

 

[driver9000]

How does it work in terms or units operating the service? Do Northern or ScotRail give up a unit for it, or is it entirely dependent on what trains are available on the day?

The ScotRail 156 works through but it's crewed by Northern between Carlisle and Newcastle. Part of one of the diagrams then went on to work a local service around Newcastle for Northern recently but I'm not sure if this still happens. It's not unheard of for a Northern 156 to reach Glasgow either.

 

[Highlandspring]

How does it work in terms or units operating the service? Do Northern or ScotRail give up a unit for it, or is it entirely dependent on what trains are available on the day?

They’re all Corkerhill 156 diagrams apart from one or two in the morning provided by Northern with Heaton 156s. ScotRail effectively lose the unit although the diagram remains the responsibility of ScotRail Control in Genius, so any additional mileage accumulated in England is still updated by them. At least one of the Newcastle terminators goes on to work a Northern diagram to Hexham (I think?) but if it doesn’t do that or gets pinched for something else then Northern are still supposed to tell ScotRail so they can update the mileage on the system accordingly. One of the ScotRail units stables at Heaton overnight. Occasionally a unit gets lost completely - one ended up in Workington a couple of times last year - or a Northern unit ends up covering for a failure. If the communications between the two Controls breaks down then you end up with a Northern 156 at East Kilbride like we had last year...

 

[_toommm_]

They’re all Corkerhill 156 diagrams apart from one or two in the morning provided by Northern with Heaton 156s. ScotRail effectively lose the unit although the diagram remains the responsibility of ScotRail Control in Genius, so any additional mileage accumulated in England is still updated by them. At least one of the Newcastle terminators goes on to work a Northern diagram to Hexham (I think?) but if it doesn’t do that or gets pinched for something else then Northern are still supposed to tell ScotRail so they can update the mileage on the system accordingly. One of the ScotRail units stables at Heaton overnight. Occasionally a unit gets lost completely - one ended up in Workington a couple of times last year - or a Northern unit ends up covering for a failure. If the communications between the two Controls breaks down then you end up with a Northern 156 at East Kilbride like we had last year...

Seems like a bit of an alien concept in this franchised world we love in I guess! Presumably ScotRail 156s are essentially no different to the Northern ones so there's no specific crew requirements?

 

[Kite159]

A couple years ago weren't the St Albans (?) - Sevenoaks jointly operated by FCC & South Eastern? With the operator changing at Blackfriars

 

[gnolife]

A couple years ago weren't the St Albans (?) - Sevenoaks jointly operated by FCC & South Eastern? With the operator changing at South Eastern.

I think you meant to have the bit in bold say London Blackfriars?

 

[Kite159]

I think you meant to have the bit in bold say London Blackfriars?

Yes I did

 

[route101]

Wonder id someone got into trouble for that Northern 156 to EK ha .
Doubt many would go from Glasgow to Newcastle this way . Though Barrhead , Killie and Dumfries would make sense .

 

[Ianno87]

When first introduced on a limited basis in 2006, the Euston-Trent Valley-Crewe local service was operated by Silverlink south of Rugby and Central Trains north thereof. Likewise for the limited cross-Northampton service at that time (which changed TOC at Northampton)

Ended when the franchises were combined into London Midland

 

[transmanche]

Back in the 1990s, it was common to see a Strathclyde PTE-liveried Scotrail 156 doing the evening Newcastle-Sunderland runs.

It doesn't seem that long ago that there were regular through services from Newcastle to Stranraer as well as Glasgow: but the Stranraer services have gone and the Glasgow services were cut back drastically in May 2018. They're only advertised as going to Barrhead at Newcastle, as the ECML route is much quicker.

 

[VT 390]

What is the point of the services as it seams unlikely than many passengers will stay on through Carlisle so why not just split the service at Carlisle. Also this would mean the service could be more reliable as by having such a long service it increases the chances of delays.

 

[darloscott]

The Scotrail unit that operates with Northern during the day actually reaches Nunthorpe.

 

[transmanche]

What is the point of the services as it seams unlikely than many passengers will stay on through Carlisle so why not just split the service at Carlisle.

You could say that of lots of services, where not many people go beyond some arbitrary splitting point. E.g. Nunthorpe/Middlesbrough to Hexham, where there is a large turnover of passengers at Newcastle.

Also this would mean the service could be more reliable as by having such a long service it increases the chances of delays.

I'm sure if reliability was a big issue, the services would have been cancelled long ago. On the odd occasion where the service has been seriously delayed between Glasgow and Carlisle, Northern has drummed up a replacement unit to work east of Carlisle - through passengers catching the following Northern service, thus minimising overall delays.

 

[Ianno87]

What is the point of the services as it seams unlikely than many passengers will stay on through Carlisle so why not just split the service at Carlisle. Also this would mean the service could be more reliable as by having such a long service it increases the chances of delays.

Historically, it was the Newcastle-Stranraer boat train, though that purpose hasn't existed for many years.

Do many passengers do journeys like Kilmarnock/Dumfries-Newcastle?

 

[Megafuss]

The Scotrail unit that operates with Northern during the day actually reaches Nunthorpe.

Indeed, a ScotRail 156 was seen on Saltburn line as as per Geoff Marshalls video today re British Steel Redcar

 

[Kite159]

Indeed, a ScotRail 156 was seen on Saltburn line as as per Geoff Marshalls video today re British Steel Redcar

That appeared to be one of the former Scottish units which transferred to northern in the last few months. Note the lack of branding.

 

[geoffk]

Seems like a bit of an alien concept in this franchised world we love in I guess! Presumably ScotRail 156s are essentially no different to the Northern ones so there's no specific crew requirements?

But, in ticketing terms, these are Northern services east of Carlisle and Scotrail services to the north, irrespective of whose unit it is. Is that correct? And crews change at Carlisle.

 

[Killingworth]

Historically, it was the Newcastle-Stranraer boat train, though that purpose hasn't existed for many years.

Do many passengers do journeys like Kilmarnock/Dumfries-Newcastle?

The boat trains from Newcastle via Castle Douglas must have stopped longer ago than I thought! They were still there in the 1947 timetable but had gone by August 1958. My train spotting at Newcastle Central probably ended about that year, and DMUs were introduced on the Tyne Valley line about 1956/7. I sense it was still possible to get a steam hauled train to Carlisle and then to Stranraer once or twice a day when the diesels first arrived.

However there remained one through train from Stranrear and two from Newcastle via Kilmarnock until 2009, taking 5 hours or more. With those times it's amazing they lasted as long!

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

I regularly catch the services to the NE that come in from Dumfries, and nearly all folk on it disembark at Carlisle, indeed you can be stood nearly a couple of minutes waiting for them all to get off - luckily there’s usually a dwell time due to the staff changeover!

Would imagine those trains that do go right through are a pain, as they cross the entire station layout?

Also, if Connect does happen in the December 19 timetable, and the Tyne Valley sees the increase in services at the west end of the line, surely these trains from Scotland will be no more, and better off terminating in the usual Platform 7/8? It’s only a short walk to the Platfrom 5/6 bay and there’ll be an increased service so no long waits?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I regularly catch the services to the NE that come in from Dumfries, and nearly all folk on it disembark at Carlisle, indeed you can be stood nearly a couple of minutes waiting for them all to get off - luckily there’s usually a dwell time due to the staff changeover!

Perhaps the train you get is one of the two morning turns from Dumfries? In which case, I assume their primary purpose is commuter traffic to Carlisle and long-distance to the south, and they would be two of the best loaded trains of the day? So yes, most people would be getting off. But how many folks stay on, would you say - 5, 10, 20?

Would imagine those trains that do go right through are a pain, as they cross the entire station layout?

Well, presumably it would be a bigger pain for Scotrail to have to provide the units?
Anyway, it's a trade off. Presumably *some* passengers do travel through to Newcastle, or some intermediate stations, and some of these would be lost if they had to change?

Also, if Connect does happen in the December 19 timetable, and the Tyne Valley sees the increase in services at the west end of the line, surely these trains from Scotland will be no more, and better off terminating in the usual Platform 7/8? It’s only a short walk to the Platfrom 5/6 bay and there’ll be an increased service so no long waits?

Perhaps it would be more useful if one of the morning trains were redirected to Leeds? Perhaps that would attract a few more through passengers? It could take the path of the 08.24 to Leeds. And the incoming early morning arrival from Leeds could continue to Dumfries? Gotta to come back, of course

 

[70014IronDuke]

... Doubt many would go from Glasgow to Newcastle this way . Though Barrhead , Killie and Dumfries would make sense .

Unless they were track freaks, or just like train travel, or there is some ridiculously cheap Scotrail-Northern only ticket, one would assume precisely zero passengers use the train throughout. But presumably there is some Dumfries+Killie to Newcastle (and beyond) traffic and vv.

Mind you, the Sunday G&SW service is shocking in terms of trains over the central section. Is there no pressure on Scotrail to improve that? They seem to be ramping up services everywhere else.

 

[Kite159]

Unless they were track freaks, or just like train travel, or there is some ridiculously cheap Scotrail-Northern only ticket, one would assume precisely zero passengers use the train throughout. But presumably there is some Dumfries+Killie to Newcastle (and beyond) traffic and vv.

Mind you, the Sunday G&SW service is shocking in terms of trains over the central section. Is there no pressure on Scotrail to improve that? They seem to be ramping up services everywhere else.

Or don't like changing trains and dislike voyagers

 

[DanNCL]

The ScotRail 156 works through but it's crewed by Northern between Carlisle and Newcastle. Part of one of the diagrams then went on to work a local service around Newcastle for Northern recently but I'm not sure if this still happens. It's not unheard of for a Northern 156 to reach Glasgow either.

Still happens, the unit does a service from Dumfries to Carlisle for ScotRail in the morning before working down to Nunthorpe, returning to Hexham, then into Newcastle where it sits for a couple of hours before doing a return trip to Morpeth, then returning to Carlisle and eventually Glasgow in the evening.

 

[pdeaves]

When first introduced on a limited basis in 2006, the Euston-Trent Valley-Crewe local service was operated by Silverlink south of Rugby and Central Trains north thereof. Likewise for the limited cross-Northampton service at that time (which changed TOC at Northampton)

Ended when the franchises were combined into London Midland

The former Bristol-Oxford service was joint First Great Western/Thames Trains. It was TT stock throughout; probably had FGW crew (though I don't know), or at least cooperation from FGW.
Heathrow Connect was joint Heathrow Express/First Great Western (later Great Western Railway). Responsibility changed over at the Hayes & Harlington stop.

 

[30907]

Perhaps it would be more useful if one of the morning trains were redirected to Leeds? Perhaps that would attract a few more through passengers? It could take the path of the 08.24 to Leeds. And the incoming early morning arrival from Leeds could continue to Dumfries? Gotta to come back, of course

The present service is an oddity - an example of franchise fossilisation - and I imagine it will disappear next year.
However, Newcastle has strong links to Scotland as well as Northern Ireland, and I recall that Butlins Heads of Ayr warranted a dated Newcastle service.

 

[Killingworth]

The present service is an oddity - an example of franchise fossilisation - and I imagine it will disappear next year.
However, Newcastle has strong links to Scotland as well as Northern Ireland, and I recall that Butlins Heads of Ayr warranted a dated Newcastle service.

Back in the 1950s there were thousands of old coaches that only came out to run summer specials, usually on Saturdays and often on obscure routes not seeing regular services. Glasgow to Whitley Bay was one.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Perhaps the train you get is one of the two morning turns from Dumfries? In which case, I assume their primary purpose is commuter traffic to Carlisle and long-distance to the south, and they would be two of the best loaded trains of the day? So yes, most people would be getting off. But how many folks stay on, would you say - 5, 10, 20?



Well, presumably it would be a bigger pain for Scotrail to have to provide the units?
Anyway, it's a trade off. Presumably *some* passengers do travel through to Newcastle, or some intermediate stations, and some of these would be lost if they had to change?



Perhaps it would be more useful if one of the morning trains were redirected to Leeds? Perhaps that would attract a few more through passengers? It could take the path of the 08.24 to Leeds. And the incoming early morning arrival from Leeds could continue to Dumfries? Gotta to come back, of course

I’ll be on it again next week, so I’ll keep a count. Not often there’s more than 5 from memory though.

I’d be surprised if people wouldn’t go to the north east, or even Leeds, anymore because their inbound terminated on Platform 7/8 and they had to walk just over 100 yards to Platform 5/6. No bridges, lifts or the likes to negotiate, just a simple stroll. Besides, now we’ve seen 158’s on the Tyne Valley they’d be upgrading their comfort!