Northern service cancelled as train sent back to depot by mistake

[pemma]

I was informed earlier the 10:02 Chester to Manchester via Altrincham today was cancelled as Northern sent a train back to the depot by mistake. There's normally a spare train at Chester at that time but this morning there wasn't due to an earlier cancellation but they still sent the 'spare train' back, leaving no train to operate the 10:02.

If anyone wants to write a sitcom about a train operator that hasn't got any idea how to run trains, they can base it on Northern.

 

[Geeves]

It wouldn't be the first time that on departure time its suddenly realized there's no unit for said service, especially if control didn't know the spare unit was not actually there, good old no communication fun times!

 

[skyhigh]

I was informed earlier the 10:02 Chester to Manchester via Altrincham today was cancelled as Northern sent a train back to the depot by mistake. There's normally a spare train at Chester at that time but this morning there wasn't due to an earlier cancellation but they still sent the 'spare train' back, leaving no train to operate the 10:02.

I think 'sending a train back to the depot by mistake' is a bit of an overstatement. It was a deliberate choice and couldn't be avoided unfortunately.

 

[Bow Fell]

Exactly,

If the unit is due exam or required for fuelling or essential maintenance then it goes, exams/fuelling can’t wait unfortunately.

I’ve always said that unfortunately, sometimes, you aren’t running a train service, you’re running a maintenance plan.

 

[pemma]

I think 'sending a train back to the depot by mistake' is a bit of an overstatement. It was a deliberate choice and couldn't be avoided unfortunately.

It's apparently what a crew member told a passenger. If it had been planned, opposed to an error, presumably he wouldn't have been left at a station with no train to return back on?

 

[skyhigh]

It's apparently what a crew member told a passenger. If it had been planned, opposed to an error, presumably he wouldn't have been left at a station with no train to return back on?

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for crew to get the next service or a taxi in the event of a cancellation.

 

[Fokx]

If it had been planned, opposed to an error, presumably he wouldn't have been left at a station with no train to return back on?

You’d be surprised how often that actually happens.

It’s happened to me twice this year alone

 

[pemma]

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for crew to get the next service or a taxi in the event of a cancellation.

Even though the train was in Chester and the depot is in Manchester, while the train would have worked a Chester to Manchester service if it had been used on the next service? The maintenance schedules must be very tight if they couldn't have waited an extra 45 minutes for that train to return in service! What would they gave done if a signalling problem had delayed the empty movement by an hour?

I hope Northern don't order taxis to transport train crews 40 miles because of planning errors. If they do they should offer the same service for passengers.

You’d be surprised how often that actually happens.

It’s happened to me twice this year alone

If an airline did that, it would be on the front page of the Daily Mail.

 

[Efini92]

It's apparently what a crew member told a passenger. If it had been planned, opposed to an error, presumably he wouldn't have been left at a station with no train to return back on?

There’s an empty stock move from Chester to Newton Heath depot at 0942. It sounds like whoever in control stepped the train up forgot to tell the driver and the signaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If an airline did that, it would be on the front page of the Daily Mail.

In part because the impact is normally much higher than an hour's delay.

 

[MP393]

There’s an empty stock move from Chester to Newton Heath depot at 0942. It sounds like whoever in control stepped the train up forgot to tell the driver and the signaller.

The unit which went back to the depot was required back on the shed, and couldn’t work the service, as said above, it wasn’t sent back in error, there was just not unit available to work it

 

[NorthWestRover]

If an airline did that, it would be on the front page of the Daily Mail.

... dressed in its Mother's bridal veil?

 

[skyhigh]

Even though the train was in Chester and the depot is in Manchester, while the train would have worked a Chester to Manchester service if it had been used on the next service?

The empty stock left at 0942 and was on depot before 1040. If it worked the cancelled 1002 it would have got to Piccadilly at 1130 and then needed to get from there to Newton Heath. It wouldn't have been on depot much before 12, assuming there was even an available driver to take it on.

The empty stock went via Victoria, the cancelled service terminated at Piccadilly - which means a reversing move would be required to get to Newton Heath, so there might not even have been a suitable path available which would have made the unit even later onto depot.

It was not an accident that the unit was sent to the depot.

 

[childwallblues]

The empty stock left at 0942 and was on depot before 1040. If it worked the cancelled 1002 it would have got to Piccadilly at 1130 and then needed to get from there to Newton Heath. It wouldn't have been on depot much before 12, assuming there was even an available driver to take it on.

The empty stock went via Victoria, the cancelled service terminated at Piccadilly - which means a reversing move would be required to get to Newton Heath, so there might not even have been a suitable path available which would have made the unit even later onto depot.

It was not an accident that the unit was sent to the depot.

They could easily have run the 1002 as far as Stockport and terminated the train there. The unit could then have gone ecs via Ashton Moss to Newton Heath

 

[Bow Fell]

No chance, they’d have people ready to start work on the unit for the exam, it might only be an hour you lose on the exam, but you reduce the chances of getting the unit back on time for service.

Similarly, it might not have the exam mileage to work as a passenger service, and can only go ECS, it can and does happen.

 

[pemma]

It was not an accident that the unit was sent to the depot.

No chance, they’d have people ready to start work on the unit for the exam, it might only be an hour you lose on the exam, but you reduce the chances of getting the unit back on time for service.

Similarly, it might not have the exam mileage to work as a passenger service, and can only go ECS, it can and does happen.

There seem to be a lot of presumptions going on and they contradict what someone in Northern uniform told a passenger. Presumably the person in Northern uniform had spoken to control if he was supposed to work a train service and came off a break to find no train to work.

We are talking about the same operator who occasionally sent trains from Newton Heath to Stockport to run the evening peak time extras to Chester, when it had already been showing in journey planners as cancelled due to no guard being available for most of the afternoon. Did I not also see a post about a driver or guard being left a train type that they weren't trained on? They do make mistakes!

 

[Spartacus]

There seem to be a lot of presumptions going on and they contradict what someone in Northern uniform told a passenger. Presumably the person in Northern uniform had spoken to control if he was supposed to work a train service and came off a break to find no train to work.

We are talking about the same operator who occasionally sent trains from Newton Heath to Stockport to run the evening peak time extras to Chester, when it had already been showing in journey planners as cancelled due to no guard being available for most of the afternoon. Did I not also see a post about a driver or guard being left a train type that they weren't trained on? They do make mistakes!

I've known passengers misinterpret what they've been told plenty of times. "Apparently what a crew member told a passenger" leaves a lot of room for mistakes to creep in. It's also not unknown for staff to assume there's been some kind of mistake when they're just looking at things on a local level when they can't see the bigger picture that explains things.

End of the day the service that was meant to come in as a pair, with one to form the 1002, came in as a single and there wasn't a unit free to work it, the only 'spare' unit being required on Newton Heath as booked. On previous occasions the unit booked to work to Newton Heath has been used when there's been any gaps, but that can't have been possible for some reason.

 

[scrapy]

They could easily have run the 1002 as far as Stockport and terminated the train there. The unit could then have gone ecs via Ashton Moss to Newton Heath

Do you know if the driver signed that route? Piccadilly drivers do not, and not all Victoria ones do, those that do only run a limited number of Chester services usually early mornings and late evenings. Could the driver have had other work or booked break where they didn't have time to go to Newton Heath? Was there a path for the train across Heaton Norris junction or on the single line section through Denton or did network rail refuse?

If it was an easier solution, they would have done it.

 

[jon0844]

I hope Northern don't order taxis to transport train crews 40 miles because of planning errors. If they do they should offer the same service for passengers.

Drivers can be put into taxis for very long distances for operational reasons, and I'm sure that passengers would be too if there wasn't another service for more than an hour (assuming of course that a taxi would save time, as often by the time they arrive from being booked and the added time compared to a train, it's still better to wait).

 

[skyhigh]

There seem to be a lot of presumptions going on and they contradict what someone in Northern uniform told a passenger. Presumably the person in Northern uniform had spoken to control if he was supposed to work a train service and came off a break to find no train to work.

They do make mistakes!

Given some traincrew attitudes to control staff I wouldn't be totally surprised if fingers were pointed without them having the full picture and making incorrect assumptions, or a message has been lost in translation somewhere. But in this case, I've read the control logs - it was planned and unavoidable. Not really much more to say than that.