• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,578
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Much of the old Regional Railways network (not just Northern) is heavily loss-making and many in power will wish to save money by letting it wilt and die away, a sort of Beeching mark 2 by stealth.

That's a rather pessimistic view, personally I doubt whether any Government, of any colour, would be able to carry out any kind of major programme of closures, and even if they did it would certainly not be by stealth.

Usually the Windermere branch is top of the list to get services cancelled along with the South Fylde branch. I wonder if someone in Northern HQ forgot about it?

Given the furore last time they withdrew the Windermere branch service that is one route guaranteed to keep its trains !
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,875
Location
Leeds
Trains for Blackpool south branch are updated on journey planner for next week
Which is great for people who use journey planners, but the people who turn up for regular services on Tuesday morning will be expecting them to run as normal. Southern has announced what they are doing from next week, Northern seem to be keeping it quiet.
 

Peterthegreat

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
1,328
Location
South Yorkshire
Still no announcement to the public? Is it supposed to be a New Year's surprise? :s
It's even worse. Some of the trains have already been withdrawn this week. They have just been removed from the data base - there is absolutely no mention of these anywhere. Absolute disgrace.
 

stew

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2007
Messages
143
I messaged Northern via Facebook asking for a list of services being withdrawn (relevant to me so just two routes) and got a response within 5 minutes.

Disappointingly it was
“…..unfortunately we are not able to provide a list of the cancelled services for these routes, however all of our journey planners are up to date to reflect the amended timetable. Please find your journey options here …….”
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,813
Location
Sheffield
I've just checked for a timetable for the Hope Valley line. Currently there appear to be 7 loaded on their website (but actually only 6 including engineering works). The two services withdrawn in the email to stakeholders are missing between 4th and 7th in the temporary timetable. For 8th and 9th it's a bus.

Just for one week at present but is that in the hope that the situation will have improved by then?
 

stew

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2007
Messages
143
I’ve just had further dialogue with Northern who refused to give me a list. When I quoted the two trains removed for the Blackpool South line, they replied “These will be correct but please be aware more may be added”
 

northernchris

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2011
Messages
1,509
It's even worse. Some of the trains have already been withdrawn this week. They have just been removed from the data base - there is absolutely no mention of these anywhere. Absolute disgrace.

There's cancellations today due to 'a short notice change to the timetable' which I'm assuming is Northern's way of fudging the performance stats. Them still not publicly communicating the changes from next week is dire, they've known almost a week now and have been updating the news section of the website this week so clearly have comms staff available
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,573
Location
Yorkshire
The only place other than here that I've seen anything about it is https://www.dalesbus.org/news

Northern Trains Timetable Change - 4th January 2022

23/12/2021

As a result of traincrew shortages Northern Trains will introduce amended reduced timetables on several routes from 4th January 2022.

The changes will affect the Airedale, Wharfedale and Harrogate lines amongst others, but no changes are expected on the Leeds - Settle Carlisle or Leeds - Lancaster - Morecambe lines.

The new timetables will be available shortly at: www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables

There's no indication on Northern's website that there are any changes to timetables after 3rd January.

It seems they're setting themselves up for complaints from people when their usual train doesn't turn up on Monday.

Edit: There are new timetables, but nothing to suggest people need to go and look for them, and no easy way to see which services have been removed.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
The only place other than here that I've seen anything about it is https://www.dalesbus.org/news



There's no indication on Northern's website that there are any changes to timetables after 3rd January.

It seems they're setting themselves up for complaints from people when their usual train doesn't turn up on Monday.
Some Halifax- Hull trains have been removed from RTT, but it's hourly with gaps not strictly 2 hourly
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,825
Location
Yorks
A couple of years ago, just before Covid, a friend and I walked the area around Snaith and Rawcliffe. The single track serves large villages and passenger numbers reflect thar. Snaith has barely recorded 2000 annual passengers in recent years and Rawcliffe hasn't topped 700.

Chickens and eggs but how many more trains woukd need to stop to make enough difference to justify the provision? This route looks destined for oblivion by stealth. Few users are likely to miss it. Deploying units from busier routes doesn't make commercial sense.

Realistically, those stations had no chance of generating passenger numbers with two trains a day in one direction and one in another.

We need to try some semblance of a usable service before condemning a route.
 
Last edited:

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,631
Cancelling Trains due to inoperative heating when they've already cancelled the one before and the one after is not doing much for their already appalling reputation. Especially given the number of trains that operate in service every day with inoperative heating and never get fixed. Me thinks there's a little fib here.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,813
Location
Sheffield
Cancelling Trains due to inoperative heating when they've already cancelled the one before and the one after is not doing much for their already appalling reputation. Especially given the number of trains that operate in service every day with inoperative heating and never get fixed. Me thinks there's a little fib here.

Our Hope Valley 4 car 150 yesterday had heating on and windows wide open. The windows won, but we were well wrapped up after our walk. Only about 6 masked passengers in our carriage so should have been safe. Guard remained in rear unit.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,601
Location
Somerset
To be honest Chathill could just be closed, it does not really serve any useful purpose. It is a terminus of convenience for the shuttle only, having previously been a junction station not entirely unlike Dyfi but with a few railway cottages. A bit like Bedwyn but smaller.

As for Chathill vs Dent, there appear to be more population within reach of Dent, and of course there is the hillwalker demand.

There is really not a lot more point in Chathill than there is in Berney Arms. Actually, Berney Arms is probably more useful, as walkers use it.
While the number of other passengers alighting at Chathill when I was last there was small, they all looked “genuine” and were all ( but one) picked up by car, so it is arguably serving a genuine purpose!
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,220
Cancelling Trains due to inoperative heating when they've already cancelled the one before and the one after is not doing much for their already appalling reputation. Especially given the number of trains that operate in service every day with inoperative heating and never get fixed. Me thinks there's a little fib here.
Do you have a source for where that's stated? I can't see it mentioned anywhere on this thread
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,220
A pax complained on Twitter. 6:35 Bradford to Huddersfield or vice-versa.
That was cancelled due to a coolant leak which resulted in only one engine working. Technically no coolant = no heating in that coach, but it was cancelled because running a unit around with only a single engine is a bad idea - not because there was no heating.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,573
Location
Yorkshire
Yesterday, the next train after the 1536 Bradford interchange to Huddersfield was the 2136.

3 of the usual trains in between have been removed from the timetable and the other 2 were cancelled on the day.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,631
That was cancelled due to a coolant leak which resulted in only one engine working. Technically no coolant = no heating in that coach, but it was cancelled because running a unit around with only a single engine is a bad idea - not because there was no heating.

It’s very odd that staff won’t say this. They’re setting themselves up for bad reviews. Just saying there’s a problem with one engine would suffice. People would understand this.

Yesterday, the next train after the 1536 Bradford interchange to Huddersfield was the 2136.

3 of the usual trains in between have been removed from the timetable and the other 2 were cancelled on the day.
What I don’t understand is, if a train at 7am is cancelled due to a train fault, why that diagram is still cancelled by the end of the day. We can’t use the argument that there’s no spare stock as they’ve stripped 30% of services for staffing (cost) issues. Is there really not a spare path at any time (given the lower frequency of trains in passenger service) to get a new train from the depot? What do the staff that were booked on that diagram do for the rest of the day when at 7am they find they don’t have a train? Given the “staff shortages” will they be assigned to other services they sign to run extra trains or will they put their feet up for the shift ?
 

HSP 2

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2019
Messages
640
Location
11B
I was looking at a day out in Manchester on maybe 05/02/22 starting off at Barrow on the 05;49 that normally arrives in Man. Pic at 08;02. But when I looked at RTT the 05;49 is going to be terminated at Preston, but they are running a Blackpool to Manchester Airport. OK just change trains not a problem apart from the Blackpool to Manchester Airport is going to run in the Barrow trains path with no time allowed to change trains. It looks like the same is going to happen with the Windermere to Manchester Airport trains as well.

A work around it could have been run the Blackpools to Wigan and put them into platform 1, then run the Barrow or Windermere in to platform 1 behind the Blackpools, some of the pathing time would be tight but at a quick glance it looks workable.

I suppose it's better than what happened last time when a number of the Barrow trains got terminated at Lancaster.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,544
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That is very strange - if you have the traincrew to operate Preston to Manchester Airport why would you not just crew the Barrow? Is it so a longer train can run, I wonder?

It appears there are 3 minutes at Preston between the two so you might well make it, though obviously it is not an official connection.
 

HSP 2

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2019
Messages
640
Location
11B
I was looking at a day out in Manchester on maybe 05/02/22 starting off at Barrow on the 05;49 that normally arrives in Man. Pic at 08;02. But when I looked at RTT the 05;49 is going to be terminated at Preston, but they are running a Blackpool to Manchester Airport. OK just change trains not a problem apart from the Blackpool to Manchester Airport is going to run in the Barrow trains path with no time allowed to change trains. It looks like the same is going to happen with the Windermere to Manchester Airport trains as well.

A work around it could have been run the Blackpools to Wigan and put them into platform 1, then run the Barrow or Windermere in to platform 1 behind the Blackpools, some of the pathing time would be tight but at a quick glance it looks workable.

I suppose it's better than what happened last time when a number of the Barrow trains got terminated at Lancaster.

In my post above I should have mentioned that this is due to engineering work between Bolton and Salford Crescent.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
In my post above I should have mentioned that this is due to engineering work between Bolton and Salford Crescent.
If the Barrow train arrives on time, it should be possible to dash across from Platform 6 to Platform 4 in 3 minutes. But if you missed this (unofficial) connection, you would be looking at an hour's delay, because the Blackpool - Hazel Grove services will be terminating at Bolton.

It would not be possible for the Barrow trains to continue to Wigan, because the Blackpool to Airport trains will be closely followed by Avanti services.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,331
It’s very odd that staff won’t say this. They’re setting themselves up for bad reviews. Just saying there’s a problem with one engine would suffice. People would understand this.


What I don’t understand is, if a train at 7am is cancelled due to a train fault, why that diagram is still cancelled by the end of the day. We can’t use the argument that there’s no spare stock as they’ve stripped 30% of services for staffing (cost) issues. Is there really not a spare path at any time (given the lower frequency of trains in passenger service) to get a new train from the depot? What do the staff that were booked on that diagram do for the rest of the day when at 7am they find they don’t have a train? Given the “staff shortages” will they be assigned to other services they sign to run extra trains or will they put their feet up for the shift ?

Yesterday being Thursday 6 January, for departures from Huddersfield to Bradford RTT shows:

0635 Cancelled - M8 Other technical failures above the Solebar
0835 Ran
1035 Ran
1235 Ran
1435 Ran
1635 Cancelled - TI Train-crew rostering problem
1835 Cancelled - TI Train-crew rostering problem
2035 Ran

So I'm not sure where you're looking at for it to be cancelled for the rest of the day comes from?
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
Crikey, I just brought a ticket from the ticket office at Ilkley and seen the whiteboard displaying what trains are missing from the timetable and realised just how fortunate we are to not have many cuts. All that is missing is:

2D44 1016 Bradford Forster Square to Ilkley
2D47 1051 Ilkley to Bradford Forster Square

2V36 1403 Leeds to Ilkley
2V39 1440 Ilkley to Leeds

What’s going on at Skipton and Leeds depots that means that there are hardly any cancellations.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,631
Yesterday being Thursday 6 January, for departures from Huddersfield to Bradford RTT shows:

0635 Cancelled - M8 Other technical failures above the Solebar
0835 Ran
1035 Ran
1235 Ran
1435 Ran
1635 Cancelled - TI Train-crew rostering problem
1835 Cancelled - TI Train-crew rostering problem
2035 Ran

So I'm not sure where you're looking at for it to be cancelled for the rest of the day comes from?

Apologies I was referring to that diagram being cancelled for the rest of the day rather than the entire service between those two stations. Although it appears it may have been two separate issues it did still leave a 6 hour gap in service, and Huddersfield to Bradford / Halifax tickets aren’t valid via Leeds etc.
 

BPN2022

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2022
Messages
99
Location
Blackpool
Are the cuts still expected to last until mid-Feb? They only seem to be in RTT until 4 Feb. Or is it a case if they are still yet to be bid by Northern and uploaded by NR?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top