Northern Short Forming Again

[sportzbar]

Currently on the 12.04 to Liverpool Lime Street and it's only a two car 195 with people forced to stand and no air conditioning working.

This is completely unacceptable by Northern. Short forming services once again.

It’s about time something was done about the disgraceful practice.

Just left Halifax and now it’s crush loaded.

The guard has requested to set down only because no one else can get on.

Sad state of affairs.

So please do tell us what your solution for this sad state of affairs is....?

 

[Andyh82]

The 2 car 195s should never have been ordered, except for a very specific reason nothing on Northern should be less than 3 cars

 

[MichaelTrains]

So please do tell us what your solution for this sad state of affairs is....?

Never run two car 195s between four of the biggest cities in the country.

Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Liverpool

 

[skyhigh]

Never run two car 195s between four of the biggest cities in the country.

Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Liverpool

And if there's zero spare units available, how do you do that?

Currently on the 12.04 to Liverpool Lime Street and it's only a two car 195

Was booked for 2x 195/0s. The second 195 failed on Neville Hill this morning with a fault meaning that it couldn't go into service. No serviceable spare units on either Newton Heath or Neville Hill so the realistic choice was cancellation or a short form.

 

[james_the_xv]

And if there's zero spare units available, how do you do that?

Transfer one from London where there's sidings full of unused units! /sarcasm

 

[Peter A]

Never run two car 195s between four of the biggest cities in the country.

Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Liverpool

Tbf that's an anomaly as usually the service runs to Chester but is diverted to Liverpool today due to engineering works. The Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool corridor is already serviced by TPE, perhaps some people are taking advantage of the presumably cheaper fares on the northern service.

 

[sportzbar]

Never run two car 195s between four of the biggest cities in the country.

Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Liverpool

So with your plan then if due to unit failure etc there is only a two car unit available to run the service it should be cancelled correct? What a brilliant idea.

Let's ensure that all services on this particular route (apart from the fact that Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool isn't an actual Northern service) are 4 car trains. If we can't run a 4 car then cancel it. That is what you are saying isn't it? Not really a solution though.....

 

[jonesy3001]

I was supposed to be on a TPE to york this afternoon, but most of their services have been cancelled today only alternative was northern or cross country, can't complain if a 195 turns up even if it does get you from a to b.

 

[stan claire]

Northern have done what they do best again, the 17:17 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North service has been blessed with a 4 car train even though I’ve gone as far as emailing them to complain about it, conductors have been complaining too. When this service is short formed it’s had to skip Lostock and Salford Crescent in the morning (07:22 from Blackpool uses the same diagram and is also equally busy) and then Deansgate and Salford Crescent in the evening because of overcrowding
One conductor has said to me that it should be made so it can’t be changed at all because of how bad it gets, however he said a 4 car is manageable. I should also mention that despite the busiest service being a short formation, the 16:48 from the airport (which essentially carries air) still has its usual formation

 

[MichaelTrains]

So with your plan then if due to unit failure etc there is only a two car unit available to run the service it should be cancelled correct? What a brilliant idea.

Let's ensure that all services on this particular route (apart from the fact that Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool isn't an actual Northern service) are 4 car trains. If we can't run a 4 car then cancel it. That is what you are saying isn't it? Not really a solution though.....

Considering there was a three-car 158 in the old loop siding at Bradford Interchange on Sunday.

Running that in the place of the awful inadequate cheap as #### CAF 195 would have been a lot better.

I don't believe for one minute Northern didn't have any spare units in Sunday.

Especially when trains were showing as cancelled due to a lack of train crew.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Considering there was a three-car 158 in the old loop siding at Bradford Interchange on Sunday.

Running that in the place of the awful inadequate cheap as #### CAF 195 would have been a lot better.

I don't believe for one minute Northern didn't have any spare units in Sunday.

Especially when trains were showing as cancelled due to a lack of train crew.

BDI is almost exclusively used for storing only demic stock so I wouldn't assume it was available for use!

 

[skyhigh]

Considering there was a three-car 158 in the old loop siding at Bradford Interchange on Sunday.

158756 was stabled overnight in Bradford, it went to Leeds empty at 08.04 to begin booked Leeds-Huddersfield work which it did all day. At no other point was there a 158 3 car stabled at Bradford, spare or otherwise.

I don't believe for one minute Northern didn't have any spare units in Sunday.

Especially when trains were showing as cancelled due to a lack of train crew.

The train you were complaining about was short formed from Neville Hill that morning due to a late failure - the only spare unit at Leeds/Neville Hill/Holbeck was a 150. For obvious reasons a 150 can't be coupled to add capacity to a 195 and somehow I think a solo 150 would be worse than a solo 195/0. There may have been unused units due to cancellations, but they simply weren't in the right place to strengthen that service. And if you're cancelling trains due to a lack of drivers (which they were), who is going to be available to move a 195 about to strengthen another service? At which point, it comes down to a question of what is better - another cancellation by taking a driver to move an empty unit, or run the train short?

 

[sportzbar]

Considering there was a three-car 158 in the old loop siding at Bradford Interchange on Sunday.

Running that in the place of the awful inadequate cheap as #### CAF 195 would have been a lot better.

I don't believe for one minute Northern didn't have any spare units in Sunday.

Especially when trains were showing as cancelled due to a lack of train crew.

Comments like this just show a complete lack of understanding of how the day to day running works. If it was as simple as you think then it would have been done.

Whether you like it or not much more qualified people than you have made the decision that was taken that day. People who do it professionally for a living and have the bigger overall picture than you do. But you seem to think you have all the answers so next time a job comes up in control or planning, why not go for it? After all I'm sure Northern would welcome your ideas which in your mind they haven't already thought of.....

 

[HullRailMan]

Never run two car 195s between four of the biggest cities in the country.

Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Liverpool

I bet nobody at Northern has ever thought of that - good job you’re here!

 

[MichaelTrains]

The 12:04 Bradford to Chester is short-formed once again. Now full and standing at Halifax.

Let me guess… another broken-down train?

Comments like this just show a complete lack of understanding of how the day to day running works. If it was as simple as you think then it would have been done.

Whether you like it or not much more qualified people than you have made the decision that was taken that day. People who do it professionally for a living and have the bigger overall picture than you do. But you seem to think you have all the answers so next time a job comes up in control or planning, why not go for it? After all I'm sure Northern would welcome your ideas which in your mind they haven't already thought of.....

So you're saying they decide which services are short-formed in advance against the stock they have available?

Strange how it always appears to be the Leeds via Bradford’s to Chester that get the pack you in like sardines and stand for a two-hour journey treatment.

 

[sportzbar]

The 12:04 Bradford to Chester is short-formed once again. Now full and standing at Halifax.

Let me guess… another broken-down train?



So you're saying they decide which services are short-formed in advance against the stock they have available?

Strange how it always appears to be the Leeds via Bradford’s to Chester that get the pack you in like sardines and stand for a two-hour journey treatment.

Yes, that's exactly what happens. Better to short form a service from 4 to 2 cars if they only have a two car unit available. Nothing strange about a 4 car train being shortened to a two car train as it's two separate units coupled together. Again people more qualified than you who can see the bigger picture across the network will make the decisions based on the effect on the network overall.

I know you won't like that answer but that is what happens. I fail to see how hard that is to understand.....

 

[D9006]

Yes, that's exactly what happens. Better to short form a service from 4 to 2 cars if they only have a two car unit available. Nothing strange about a 4 car train being shortened to a two car train as it's two separate units coupled together. Again people more qualified than you who can see the bigger picture across the network will make the decisions based on the effect on the network overall.

I know you won't like that answer but that is what happens. I fail to see how hard that is to understand.....

so they don’t sit in an office and go right team todays plan is to cause real discomfort to passengers ,anyone got suggestions on which trains to short form and park the spares up somewhere in plain view just to really get to them.
Tongue in check comment because it show feels like some think that’s what they do

 

[northernchris]

Today has been particularly bad for short forming, there's been at least 6 diagrams on the Calder Valley missing carriages, and the Leeds - Carlisle service I was heading for was 2 instead of 3. 2 units have been saved with the Huddersfield - Bradford shuttle not running, so had a full timetable been in operation things would have been worse.

 

[Lampshade]

The biggest concern here isn’t the short forming, it’s the fact that someone somewhere allowed 2 carriage 195s to be ordered.

 

[cslusarc]

The biggest concern here isn’t the short forming, it’s the fact that someone somewhere allowed 2 carriage 195s to be ordered.

Unfortunately 2-car class 195s were ordered with the long term intent to be cascaded from flagship routes to secondary rural routes like the Cumbrian Coast Line after all Sprinters are retired.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Today has been particularly bad for short forming, there's been at least 6 diagrams on the Calder Valley missing carriages, and the Leeds - Carlisle service I was heading for was 2 instead of 3. 2 units have been saved with the Huddersfield - Bradford shuttle not running, so had a full timetable been in operation things would have been worse.

The Calder Valley is the one line which gets cut the most which is absolutely criminal seeing as it links Leeds - Bradford - Manchester.

Would they run 2 car services on London to Brighton or Birmingham to Bristol?

No, they wouldn't.

 

[sportzbar]

The Calder Valley is the one line which gets cut the most which is absolutely criminal seeing as it links Leeds - Bradford - Manchester.

Would they run 2 car services on London to Brighton or Birmingham to Bristol?

No, they wouldn't.

The Calder valley "gets cut" as you say when one of the units on a 4 car train (2 x 2 car units) develops a fault. If it was a 3 car unit then the service would be cancelled. You make out that it's a constantly occurring theme yet checking the logs it's actually less than 5% of services which get short formed on the Calder Valley. Significantly less than other areas of the network.

This has been explained to you numerous times but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. I myself and others have asked what your solution is but you don't actually seem to be able to come up with one that is better than the actual, experienced professionals in control do.

Please do tell us exactly how you would solve it with a properly thought out plan, so that I can send it in to my colleagues in planning who will either offer you a job straight away or just roll their eyes at another person who thinks they know it all but really hasn't a clue how it all works.....

 

[Geeves]

Just to add views from "the other side" at least 4 times this morning at Victoria various Calder Valley and Clitheroe trains were put back to 4 cars using various means, trains from the depot, trains from Liverpool, trains that were going to the depot but were diverted and added to other trains.

I'll do a check in the morning.

Here's how its looking currently, not wonderful

0551 - Vic - Leeds - 195016
0604 - Vic - Blackburn via Tod - Cancelled at Vic (156416 later)
0630 - Vic - Leeds - 195011+195008 (008 attaches at Leeds
0636 - Vic - Leeds Cancelled
0656 - Vic - Leeds Cancelled
0704 - Wigan - Vic - Tod - Blackburn 150110 (cancelled at Vic)
0721 - Chester - Leeds - 195127
0736 - Wigan - Leeds - 158906 + 158910
0757 - Vic - Leeds - 195003 + 195015
0804 - Headbolt Lane - Blackburn via Tod - Cancelled at Vic (150102 + 156429 later)
0820 - Chester - Leeds - 195021
0836 - Wigan - Leeds - 158860 + 158872
0857 - Vic - Leeds - 195116
0904 - Headbolt Lane - Blackburn via Tod - 156409 + 156428
0921 - Vic - Leeds - 195112
0936 Wigan - Leeds - 158754

 

[MichaelTrains]

The Calder valley "gets cut" as you say when one of the units on a 4 car train (2 x 2 car units) develops a fault. If it was a 3 car unit then the service would be cancelled. You make out that it's a constantly occurring theme yet checking the logs it's actually less than 5% of services which get short formed on the Calder Valley. Significantly less than other areas of the network.

This has been explained to you numerous times but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. I myself and others have asked what your solution is but you don't actually seem to be able to come up with one that is better than the actual, experienced professionals in control do.

Please do tell us exactly how you would solve it with a properly thought out plan, so that I can send it in to my colleagues in planning who will either offer you a job straight away or just roll their eyes at another person who thinks they know it all but really hasn't a clue how it all works.....

To give you a proper reply I will need the total number of units cleared for Leeds - Chester that are available on an average day.

On a positive front, I travelled on a six-car 195 that was strengthened earlier today working Blackpool North to York.

 

[sportzbar]

To give you a proper reply I will need the total number of units cleared for Leeds - Chester that are available on an average day.

On a positive front, I travelled on a six-car 195 that was strengthened earlier today working Blackpool North to York.

Why would you need the number of units cleared on an average day? That figure doesn't exist unfortunately as it's not route specific but network specific.

You want to concentrate on one specific route when the day to day running is network wide. It just doesn't work like that. That's why you are struggling to understand, I know that now.

Meanwhile those of us who do the job professionally will continue to work with what we've got and provide the best service possible. You in the meantime, feel free to moan and groan as that's all you have the ability to do, explanations seem to go over your head ...

 

[Jamesrob637]

Maybe either, back in the mid to late 10s:

1) more Civity should have been ordered
2) 142 and 144 been allowed to stay until more new trains entered service, but a few withdrawn and the remaining units always coupled to a PRM-compluant unit

 

[MichaelTrains]

Why would you need the number of units cleared on an average day? That figure doesn't exist unfortunately as it's not route specific but network specific.

You want to concentrate on one specific route when the day to day running is network wide. It just doesn't work like that. That's why you are struggling to understand, I know that now.

Meanwhile those of us who do the job professionally will continue to work with what we've got and provide the best service possible. You in the meantime, feel free to moan and groan as that's all you have the ability to do, explanations seem to go over your head ...

Because it there are units that can work both sides then using a unit of the Blackburn to Man Vics or Rochdale’s would be better than having them roam around as four cars carrying fresh air.

 

[thealexweb]

Because it there are units that can work both sides then using a unit of the Blackburn to Man Vics or Rochdale’s would be better than having them roam around as four cars carrying fresh air.

That route has already stripped of resources to help the North East no? The 158s stopped coming over, then three car 150s were needed in North East too so off they went too. There's many single 150 turns a day there already...

 

[voyagerdude220]

On a positive front, I travelled on a six-car 195 that was strengthened earlier today working Blackpool North to York.

You were lucky with the double 195, because none of the Blackpool to Yorks are booked for anything other than a 3car 195.

I believe your train was 2x195s as a result of Driver shortages, a few Blackpool to Yorks were cancelled yesterday.

 

[jonesy3001]

My 12:19 (195127) from Blackpool to Leeds was running late due to a vehicle striking a bridge at Micklefield, no complaining from me.