Northern Short Forming Again

[InkyScrolls]

That route has already stripped of resources to help the North East no? The 158s stopped coming over, then three car 150s were needed in North East too so off they went too. There's many single 150 turns a day there already...

150s aren't used in the northeast.

 

[sportzbar]

Because it there are units that can work both sides then using a unit of the Blackburn to Man Vics or Rochdale’s would be better than having them roam around as four cars carrying fresh air

And it's ideas like this which shows why your plan just won't work. First off these "four cars carrying fresh air" do so at the same times that the 4 car workings on the Calder valley also carry around fresh air.

So what you are saying then is that because a 2 car unit in a formation of 2x 195s has a fault and can then not be put into service, two of the Blackburn to Vic/Rochdale services should be short formed to create a 4 car unit for the Calder Valley?

So now instead of one diagram being short formed we have two. Don't forget the 195s used on the Leeds-Chester cannot be coupled to the 150/156 units used. Plus what do you do with the other 195 that is now displaced? Can't send it to Blackburn as over 50% of the driving on the route is done by Blackburn depot who don't sign 195 traction. Please don't say get another driver from a depot that does because that's just a whole new can of worms and we really will go down the rabbit hole....

Once again I will point out (and you really are helping me prove my point), you have absolutely no knowledge of how day to day running of the network and not just your little part of it works. That's why much more qualified professionals do the job and make the hard decisions based on the affect of the network overall not just on the couple of journeys a day you make on the Calder Valley but the 2500+ services each day.....

 

[MichaelTrains]

You were lucky with the double 195, because none of the Blackpool to Yorks are booked for anything other than a 3car 195.

I believe your train was 2x195s as a result of Driver shortages, a few Blackpool to Yorks were cancelled yesterday.

That would make sense.

It was still a very busy service because of all the delays and cancellations.

It missed out a number of station stops on the way to York (either due to late running or platform length is my guess).

A shame they can't always be doubled up.

And it's ideas like this which shows why your plan just won't work. First off these "four cars carrying fresh air" do so at the same times that the 4 car workings on the Calder valley also carry around fresh air.

So what you are saying then is that because a 2 car unit in a formation of 2x 195s has a fault and can then not be put into service, two of the Blackburn to Vic/Rochdale services should be short formed to create a 4 car unit for the Calder Valley?

So now instead of one diagram being short formed we have two. Don't forget the 195s used on the Leeds-Chester cannot be coupled to the 150/156 units used. Plus what do you do with the other 195 that is now displaced? Can't send it to Blackburn as over 50% of the driving on the route is done by Blackburn depot who don't sign 195 traction. Please don't say get another driver from a depot that does because that's just a whole new can of worms and we really will go down the rabbit hole....

Once again I will point out (and you really are helping me prove my point), you have absolutely no knowledge of how day to day running of the network and not just your little part of it works. That's why much more qualified professionals do the job and make the hard decisions based on the affect of the network overall not just on the couple of journeys a day you make on the Calder Valley but the 2500+ services each day.....

In the past few weeks, there have been 158s on the Leeds to Manchester Victoria’s and I’m not taking about the Wigan diversions.

Obviously, everything that is short -formed can't be strengthened due to lack of availability but I would certainly prioritise a core route like the Calder Valley which covers three of the top 10 biggest cities in the UK.

That is my argument and I stand by it.

You wouldn't have this happening in any other part of the country.

A TOC running an inadequate two-car service between three major cities.

 

[Neptune]

You wouldn't have this happening in any other part of the country.

A TOC running an inadequate two-car service between three major cities.

You would.

Have you not seen the numerous Cardiff - Bristol - Portsmouth threads?

Or threads on overcrowded 2 car 158’s covering for HST’s on Edinburgh - Dundee - Aberdeen.

2 car 158’s or 170’s working Norwich - Peterborough - Nottingham - Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool throughout.

 

[sportzbar]

In the past few weeks, there have been 158s on the Leeds to Manchester Victoria’s and I’m not taking about the Wigan diversions.

Obviously, everything that is short -formed can't be strengthened due to lack of availability but I would certainly prioritise a core route like the Calder Valley which covers three of the top 10 biggest cities in the UK.

That is my argument and I stand by it.

You wouldn't have this happening in any other part of the country.

A TOC running an inadequate two-car service between three major cities.

"the past few weeks, there have been 158s on the Leeds to Manchester Victoria’s and I’m not taking about the Wigan diversions."

Almost correct there. They weren't on "Wigan Diversions", but on Brighouse diversions due to that particular section of line being closed. Perhaps you were confused with the fact that some of them started at Manchester Victoria as opposed to Wigan? None of the scheduled Vic-Leeds or Chester Leeds have been operated by 158s for the past 18+ months.

If you wish to stand by what you say then please do. All it does is reaffirm the fact that you just dont have a clue how it works. Oh and yes it does happen in other parts of the country on an everyday basis (I have friends working for other TOCs), so again another supposition.

I get you are frustrated when something goes wrong but to try and argue you point time and time again when those in the know, who do the job and 100% know better than you how to deliver the best service with the tools available to everyone across the entire 2500+ network and not just the Calder Valley.

Yes the Calder Valley is an important part of the network but something you can't seem to do is see that there are numerous other important parts of the network that suffer just as much when it goes wrong.

So believe what you want. I and others give you the facts and reasons behind why things are the way they are but you seem to think there is some sort of conspiracy behind it all.

I think I'm done with this conversation. Some people just aren't prepared to listen to facts when presented to them on a plate. You sir are one of them.....

 

[skyhigh]

So believe what you want. I and others give you the facts and reasons behind why things are the way they are but you seem to think there is some sort of conspiracy behind it all.

Reminder of a couple of weeks ago when it was claimed there was a spare 158 3 car at Interchange which could have been used, although when it was checked there had been no spare units stabled at Interchange all day...

To give you a proper reply I will need the total number of units cleared for Leeds - Chester that are available on an average day.

Knowing the number of units that are available is pointless without knowing how they are diagrammed.

The June unit diagrams are available here - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diagrams_from_june_2024_to_dec_2#incoming-2630785

Please feel free to study them and indicate how you'd strengthen the services you want without cancelling others and returning units to their booked end-of-day location.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Reminder of a couple of weeks ago when it was claimed there was a spare 158 3 car at Interchange which could have been used, although when it was checked there had been no spare units stabled at Interchange all day...

Knowing the number of units that are available is pointless without knowing how they are diagrammed.

The June unit diagrams are available here - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diagrams_from_june_2024_to_dec_2#incoming-2630785

Please feel free to study them and indicate how you'd strengthen the services you want without cancelling others and returning units to their booked end-of-day location.

Sorry to be pedantic but there was a three-car 158 in the loop siding. About halfway up platform one.

If it was a faulty unit fair enough but the Sunday I travelled and Northern used a 2 car 195 for the Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool service which was full and leaving passengers behind from Halifax onwards.

 

[Neptune]

Sorry to be pedantic but there was a three-car 158 in the loop siding. About halfway up platform one.

If it was a faulty unit fair enough but the Sunday I travelled and Northern used a 2 car 195 for the Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool service which was full and leaving passengers behind from Halifax onwards.

But it wasn’t spare. Sunday is the day most unit maintenance is done so a full service can be run on the busier days/times.

 

[skyhigh]

Sorry to be pedantic but there was a three-car 158 in the loop siding. About halfway up platform one.

If it was a faulty unit fair enough but the Sunday I travelled and Northern used a 2 car 195 for the Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Liverpool service which was full and leaving passengers behind from Halifax onwards.

It wasn't spare though. It entered service around 0900 and did a full day in passenger service.

You claimed it was a spare unit that could have been used vs the 195/0, which wasn't the case.

 

[Topological]

You would.

Have you not seen the numerous Cardiff - Bristol - Portsmouth threads?

Or threads on overcrowded 2 car 158’s covering for HST’s on Edinburgh - Dundee - Aberdeen.

2 car 158’s or 170’s working Norwich - Peterborough - Nottingham - Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool throughout.

Or indeed what TfW serve up on the Marches (Swansea - Cardiff - Manchester if we need 3 cities, but the reality is there are many more significant settlements on that route as well as the interchange at Crewe.)

When I was using Calder Valley regularly 142s were common, though probably they have more seating capacity than a 195/0?

 

[thealexweb]

150s aren't used in the northeast.

Not true.

Example -> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32607/2024-06-06#allox_id=0

 

[MichaelTrains]

It wasn't spare though. It entered service around 0900 and did a full day in passenger service.

You claimed it was a spare unit that could have been used vs the 195/0, which wasn't the case.

Cheers, thank you for the reply.

I didn't know it was going to enter service. It was just sat there in the loop.

Whilst everyone is crushed onto a 2 car 195.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Not true.

Example -> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32607/2024-06-06#allox_id=0

That's the East, not the North East region of Northern. The Northern NE depots are Carlisle, Newcastle, Ashington, Darlington and Middlesbrough, none of which sign 150s.

 

[Neptune]

Not true.

Example -> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32607/2024-06-06#allox_id=0

This is classed as the East Region. The North East region depots (AH, CL, DA, MS & NE) only sign 156/158’s and 150’s never venture up there.

 

[skyhigh]

Cheers, thank you for the reply.

I didn't know it was going to enter service. It was just sat there in the loop.

Whilst everyone is crushed onto a 2 car 195.

It wasn't "just sat", it was waiting to enter service to work Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield shuttles.

I did look into this when you brought it up, from memory it was a Liverpool train you were on - the diagram involved Liverpool drivers who don't sign 158s. There was also no spare crew to swap the 158/195 around that morning and they're not fitted with teleport.

So to get the 158 onto your train you'd have had to cancel services to get the unit in the right place. And then terminated short due to no onward driver. Not sure that's much more help

And your train was only short formed due to a very short notice failure that morning.

 

[Geeves]

Because it there are units that can work both sides then using a unit of the Blackburn to Man Vics or Rochdale’s would be better than having them roam around as four cars carrying fresh air.

There's lots of units on the west that go elsewhere on the west later on to depots like Blackburn and Carlisle that purely sign 150s and/or 156s and the same on the east, like you say there are units can go both ways but it makes a mess of everything, wrong depots, trains running out of fuel and train crews not signing the correct traction. There are some drivers for example that purely sign 195s so it's not as simple as just firing things off anywhere

 

[Pacco]

Just been on a two-car 156 from Manchester Piccadilly on a Buxton service, immediately after the match at the Etihad Stadium. Packed full ten minutes before departure, people sat in the floor, passengers arguing, people left on the platform. Northern showing a complete absence of forethought or common sense there, unless I'm missing something?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Just been on a two-car 156 from Manchester Piccadilly on a Buxton service, immediately after the match at the Etihad Stadium. Packed full ten minutes before departure, people sat in the floor, passengers arguing, people left on the platform. Northern showing a complete absence of forethought or common sense there, unless I'm missing something?

Nope, just a typical day on Northern. They seem completely oblivious to any major events, sporting or otherwise, that might mean trains on certain routes might be exceptionally busy on certain dates.

 

[Thomas6187]

Can't strengthen everything, as all the other Buxton after the game were 4 cars. Guessing it was the 1751, and probably mostly Stockport passenger who would have normally board the cancelled 1755 AWC Euston

 

[yorksrob]

That would make sense.

It was still a very busy service because of all the delays and cancellations.

It missed out a number of station stops on the way to York (either due to late running or platform length is my guess).

A shame they can't always be doubled up.



In the past few weeks, there have been 158s on the Leeds to Manchester Victoria’s and I’m not taking about the Wigan diversions.

Obviously, everything that is short -formed can't be strengthened due to lack of availability but I would certainly prioritise a core route like the Calder Valley which covers three of the top 10 biggest cities in the UK.

That is my argument and I stand by it.

You wouldn't have this happening in any other part of the country.

A TOC running an inadequate two-car service between three major cities.

Really Northern should have been allowed to keep a few 144's back. Failing that, some 153's.

Instead we're left with 150's that are inadequate on a busy service on their own.

 

[Pacco]

Can't strengthen everything, as all the other Buxton after the game were 4 cars. Guessing it was the 1751, and probably mostly Stockport passenger who would have normally board the cancelled 1755 AWC Euston

Appreciate that, but with a game finishing at 1700 and a good 25 minute walk, that's kind of the key period for people arriving and expecting trains home.

And on a bigger view, the notion that a two car train at almost any time is good enough for a city the size of Manchester is laughable.

 

[Llandudno]

Appreciate that, but with a game finishing at 1700 and a good 25 minute walk, that's kind of the key period for people arriving and expecting trains home.

And on a bigger view, the notion that a two car train at almost any time is good enough for a city the size of Manchester is laughable.

..or Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds for that matter….!

 

[Whisky Papa]

Nope, just a typical day on Northern. They seem completely oblivious to any major events, sporting or otherwise, that might mean trains on certain routes might be exceptionally busy on certain dates.

I might personally take offence at that, having diagrammed additional units for dozens of sporting and other events for Northern at one time. Sadly, a lack of available stock or crew, or any number of infrastructure problems could cause it to fall down on the day, but we certainly did try (and as far as I am aware the current STP planners still do, given that an awful lot more of Northern's services are already diagrammed as longer trains anyway). Anyone remember the mechanical spider appearance during Liverpool's 2008 City of Culture celebrations, for which we got a whole three days notice and still attempted to strengthen everything possible to/from Lime St? That was on top of the existing strengthening for Southport Airshow, and a possession between Manchester Victoria and Newton Heath!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I might personally take offence at that, having diagrammed additional units for dozens of sporting and other events for Northern at one time. Sadly, a lack of available stock or crew, or any number of infrastructure problems could cause it to fall down on the day, but we certainly did try (and as far as I am aware the current STP planners still do, given that an awful lot more of Northern's services are already diagrammed as longer trains anyway). Anyone remember the mechanical spider appearance during Liverpool's 2008 City of Culture celebrations, for which we got a whole three days notice and still attempted to strengthen everything possible to/from Lime St? That was on top of the existing strengthening for Southport Airshow, and a possession between Manchester Victoria and Newton Heath!

Out of interest, do Northern take into account major events when deciding what stock should form which service? To use @Pacco's example, do Northern say to you and your team "City are at home this Saturday so try to make all services leaving Piccadilly around 1730 double units, even if that means short forming at other times of day?

Obviously this wouldn't be applicable if Manchester United were at home because most of their fans would be travelling home to the South on an Avanti bound for Euston.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Really Northern should have been allowed to keep a few 144's back. Failing that, some 153's.

Instead we're left with 150's that are inadequate on a busy service on their own.

The three-car 195s on the busy York to Blackpool are in desperate need of strengthening.

Twice in three journeys, it’s been crush-loaded after Accrington.

York to Blackpool via Leeds and Bradford should be more capacity than three carriages.

The old Scarborough-Blackpools were usually 2 x 158 back in the day.

 

[yorksrob]

The three-car 195s on the busy York to Blackpool are in desperate need of strengthening.

Twice in three journeys, it’s been crush-loaded after Accrington.

York to Blackpool via Leeds and Bradford should be more capacity than three carriages.

The old Scarborough-Blackpools were usually 2 x 158 back in the day.

Yes, the 158's are the best people movers.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The three-car 195s on the busy York to Blackpool are in desperate need of strengthening.

Twice in three journeys, it’s been crush-loaded after Accrington.

York to Blackpool via Leeds and Bradford should be more capacity than three carriages.

The old Scarborough-Blackpools were usually 2 x 158 back in the day.

I strongly agree with you. Even during the week the 3car 195s are often full to capacity. Yet they managed to put a 2-car 195 on the York to Blackpool workings last Saturday afternoon, which left large volumes of people behind at multiple stations.

 

[MichaelTrains]

I strongly agree with you. Even during the week the 3car 195s are often full to capacity. Yet they managed to put a 2-car 195 on the York to Blackpool workings last Saturday afternoon, which left large volumes of people behind at multiple stations.

This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.

Northern desperately needs more trains to strengthen services.

I also regularly use the Man Victoria/Chesters and they are just as bad.

Two car 195s crush loaded.

 

[skyhigh]

This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.

You have said this before, but yes it does.

 

[yorksrob]

This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.

Northern desperately needs more trains to strengthen services.

I also regularly use the Man Victoria/Chesters and they are just as bad.

Two car 195s crush loaded.

And Northern has recently given up 153's, which could have been used to strengthen various services - but the DfT/Treasury didn't feel like paying for them.