Northern Short Forming Again

[SpeedyWombat88]

This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.

Northern desperately needs more trains to strengthen services.

I also regularly use the Man Victoria/Chesters and they are just as bad.

Two car 195s crush loaded.

“This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.”

It absolutely does. TFW sometimes have to set swap 5 coach WAG sets for a 158, which happened to me.
GWR have issues with short forming at times, as do EMR, and many others

 

[frodshamfella]

One thing I notice as a comparison, when I travel back to where I was brought up ( Bexleyheath Kent ) , the.trains are very long, and certainly off peak, they are not rammed.

 

[sandpiper]

The three-car 195s on the busy York to Blackpool are in desperate need of strengthening.

Twice in three journeys, it’s been crush-loaded after Accrington.

York to Blackpool via Leeds and Bradford should be more capacity than three carriages.

The old Scarborough-Blackpools were usually 2 x 158 back in the day.

One of the problems you have is that some of the platforms are only 4 car lengths so you can only have either a 2x2car 195 or a single 3 car 195.

It is the busiest route in the area, especially at weekends and I have witnessed on many occasions passengers left behind.

But the biggest obstacle on this route I am told, and a reason that many York-Blackpools are cancelled leading to overcrowding on the next service 1 hour later, is ASLEF at company level, (DCW and local level reps), who are actively blocking Blackburn Depot, (drivers and conductors), from training on both 195s and on the York to Blackpool route, a route and type of train that passes through Blackburn twice an hour! I am told this is a source of extreme frustration at Blackburn, especially when York-Blackpools are cancelled due to lack of staff, as they cannot even take a spare 150 or 156, (if one is available), from the stabling and light maintenance depot at Blackburn King Street to Blackpool North as ASLEF sub-committees refuse to allow Blackburn to sign Kirkham to Blackpool North and Todmorden to Leeds, (however apparently, Blackburn do sign to Blackpool South).
I am told that there is often spare drivers and conductors at Blackburn, even when York-Blackpools are cancelled because of lack of staff. A rumour I was told was that Blackburn has more train-crew than it should have anyway!

(I am believe that Blackburn conductors, but not drivers, used to sign Blackpool North but the local level rep from RMT stopped that, in addition they didn't sign 195s anyway).

Also, add into the mix that at least 5 Blackpool drivers every day are rostered to route-refreshing Bolton to Manchester-Victoria, and Blackburn to Clitheroe.

Blackburn depot sign Kirkham to Stansfield Junction, (near Todmorden), which means they sign about 40 miles or 50% of the Blackpool-Leeds route.

I was told that the fierce protectionist attitude of local depot reps is causing this situation and the result is that us passengers are basically subjected to either cancelled, (often with the train running ECS anyway), or crammed in on the next over-crowded service.
As has been mentioned before, the service frequency should be increased, at least between Bradford and Preston to every half hour.

But, as long as the unions take this attitude the passengers will suffer.

Anybody else wonder why the UK railways are such a mess.....?

 

[Adam0984]

Also the small fact that there isn't enough trains to run the current service at the moment never mind extra services and/or adding extra carriages to existing services

 

[scrapy]

Also the small fact that there isn't enough trains to run the current service at the moment never mind extra services and/or adding extra carriages to existing services

Yes that's more the case, even if platforms only take 4 cars you can still run 6 cars trains with ASDO/SDO (assuming the platforms used at Bradford and Leeds can fit them). Plenty of stations that only fit 4 car train (or even 3 1/2 cars) on other routes, such as the Barrow line use 6 car 195s.

 

[RJ]

“This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.”

It absolutely does. TFW sometimes have to set swap 5 coach WAG sets for a 158, which happened to me.
GWR have issues with short forming at times, as do EMR, and many others

Indeed. I think it might be fairer to say it wouldn’t be accepted as the norm on the commuter lines out of London, but it is allowed to happen long term elsewhere.

 

[Topological]

“This wouldn't happen anywhere else in the country.”

It absolutely does. TFW sometimes have to set swap 5 coach WAG sets for a 158, which happened to me.
GWR have issues with short forming at times, as do EMR, and many others

One diagram a day still is ((The planned diagram is only long term planned so therefore not technically short formed))

The 5-car for Manchester to Swansea still does not have approval meaning that every 197 on the route is technically short-formed. Again TfW would say that there is no short forming, but they did promise 5-car and 3-car is the longest operated (there is 1 4-car to allow a split at Manchester and 2 2-cars to return south).

In essence, everywhere has short forming.

 

[Killingworth]

Indeed. I think it might be fairer to say it wouldn’t be accepted as the norm on the commuter lines out of London, but it is allowed to happen long term elsewhere.

We recently travelled Elizabeth Line Heathrow to Shenfield, 9 coaches passing through central London at midnight. Totally rammed, so full that potential passengers stood back at Stratford as too full to board.

Earlier in the year we used the Thameslink service that runs from Brighton to Cambridge, 12 coaches. For the central London part all carriages were standing room only, all but the extreme ends totally rammed full.

On this overcrowding topic Northern are a long way from unique. Inability to provide the full complement of carriages to meet their plans is the subsequent issue and that's not restricted to Northern either.

Mass transport systems will never be able to cope well with variable levels of demand at different times of day in different directions and at all points on the route. To provide full capacity for perhaps only 5-10% of the operational day would require a massive number of extra carriages carrying a lot of fresh air for most of the time.

However, it seems almost all TOCs have too few'spare' coaches to meet peak demand periods, extra services, servicing, refurbishments, training and accidents. Reserves are too small. With units expected to last 30-40 years it's unreasonable to expect fleets ordered over 30 years ago to still suit their changed markets generations down the line.

Looking out of a Northern unit at Sunderland you might see one of the mature Tyne & Wear Metro units still soldiering on long past its intended life span, serving destinations it wasn't expected to reach. Many units are now out of service with new stock long delayed.

What makes the situation worse is the multiplicity of incompatible unit types being acquired and operated by TOCs and ROSCOs. That isn't improving. A 150/156/158 combination can work almost anywhere 30 years after introduction. Today's new units will be far more difficult to cascade.

 

[MichaelTrains]

One of the problems you have is that some of the platforms are only 4 car lengths so you can only have either a 2x2car 195 or a single 3 car 195.

It is the busiest route in the area, especially at weekends and I have witnessed on many occasions passengers left behind.

But the biggest obstacle on this route I am told, and a reason that many York-Blackpools are cancelled leading to overcrowding on the next service 1 hour later, is ASLEF at company level, (DCW and local level reps), who are actively blocking Blackburn Depot, (drivers and conductors), from training on both 195s and on the York to Blackpool route, a route and type of train that passes through Blackburn twice an hour! I am told this is a source of extreme frustration at Blackburn, especially when York-Blackpools are cancelled due to lack of staff, as they cannot even take a spare 150 or 156, (if one is available), from the stabling and light maintenance depot at Blackburn King Street to Blackpool North as ASLEF sub-committees refuse to allow Blackburn to sign Kirkham to Blackpool North and Todmorden to Leeds, (however apparently, Blackburn do sign to Blackpool South).
I am told that there is often spare drivers and conductors at Blackburn, even when York-Blackpools are cancelled because of lack of staff. A rumour I was told was that Blackburn has more train-crew than it should have anyway!

(I am believe that Blackburn conductors, but not drivers, used to sign Blackpool North but the local level rep from RMT stopped that, in addition they didn't sign 195s anyway).

Also, add into the mix that at least 5 Blackpool drivers every day are rostered to route-refreshing Bolton to Manchester-Victoria, and Blackburn to Clitheroe.

Blackburn depot sign Kirkham to Stansfield Junction, (near Todmorden), which means they sign about 40 miles or 50% of the Blackpool-Leeds route.

I was told that the fierce protectionist attitude of local depot reps is causing this situation and the result is that us passengers are basically subjected to either cancelled, (often with the train running ECS anyway), or crammed in on the next over-crowded service.
As has been mentioned before, the service frequency should be increased, at least between Bradford and Preston to every half hour.

But, as long as the unions take this attitude the passengers will suffer.

Anybody else wonder why the UK railways are such a mess.....?

If the above is true then that is quite frankly ridiculous that these members of staff are holding the railway to random.

So not surprised you mention Blackpool as well because the attitude of the staff is quite frankly disgraceful.

Is there capacity to do Bradford to Preston every 30 minutes?

How many additional units would it require?

 

[voyagerdude220]

If the above is true then that is quite frankly ridiculous that these members of staff are holding the railway to random.

So not surprised you mention Blackpool as well because the attitude of the staff is quite frankly disgraceful.

Is there capacity to do Bradford to Preston every 30 minutes?

How many additional units would it require?

I agree with you.
I'm not sure about Bradford to Preston, but I think they could do with more trains running between say Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn towards Preston and back, particularly in the summer months. Or maybe even just a Blackburn to Preston shuttle to relieve pressure from the Blackpool North for connections at Preston.

 

[Kite159]

.

I agree with you.
I'm not sure about Bradford to Preston, but I think they could do with more trains running between say Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn towards Preston and back, particularly in the summer months. Or maybe even just a Blackburn to Preston shuttle to relieve pressure from the Blackpool North for connections at Preston.

Agreed with extra services from Blackburn towards Preston, considering it's 1tph fast and 1tph stopper (which is normally a 2 coach 150. Breaking out the crayons how many extra units would be required if Northern extended the Preston - Blackpool South services to Blackburn running semi-fast [maybe a call at Bamber Bridge]?

As for Leeds - Blackpool North, I've seen some of those trains departing Leeds pretty much full & standing, and that's before they pick up the masses at Bradford on summer weekends.

 

[BPN2022]

.

Agreed with extra services from Blackburn towards Preston, considering it's 1tph fast and 1tph stopper (which is normally a 2 coach 150. Breaking out the crayons how many extra units would be required if Northern extended the Preston - Blackpool South services to Blackburn running semi-fast [maybe a call at Bamber Bridge]?

As for Leeds - Blackpool North, I've seen some of those trains departing Leeds pretty much full & standing, and that's before they pick up the masses at Bradford on summer weekends.

Surely that idea for Blackpool South idea is doable as the unit just sits and reverses at Preston does it not so a non stop trip to Blackburn with one call seems doable?

I guess it may cost extra crew.

 

[thealexweb]

One of the problems you have is that some of the platforms are only 4 car lengths so you can only have either a 2x2car 195 or a single 3 car 195.

It is the busiest route in the area, especially at weekends and I have witnessed on many occasions passengers left behind.

But the biggest obstacle on this route I am told, and a reason that many York-Blackpools are cancelled leading to overcrowding on the next service 1 hour later, is ASLEF at company level, (DCW and local level reps), who are actively blocking Blackburn Depot, (drivers and conductors), from training on both 195s and on the York to Blackpool route, a route and type of train that passes through Blackburn twice an hour! I am told this is a source of extreme frustration at Blackburn, especially when York-Blackpools are cancelled due to lack of staff, as they cannot even take a spare 150 or 156, (if one is available), from the stabling and light maintenance depot at Blackburn King Street to Blackpool North as ASLEF sub-committees refuse to allow Blackburn to sign Kirkham to Blackpool North and Todmorden to Leeds, (however apparently, Blackburn do sign to Blackpool South).
I am told that there is often spare drivers and conductors at Blackburn, even when York-Blackpools are cancelled because of lack of staff. A rumour I was told was that Blackburn has more train-crew than it should have anyway!

(I am believe that Blackburn conductors, but not drivers, used to sign Blackpool North but the local level rep from RMT stopped that, in addition they didn't sign 195s anyway).

Also, add into the mix that at least 5 Blackpool drivers every day are rostered to route-refreshing Bolton to Manchester-Victoria, and Blackburn to Clitheroe.

Blackburn depot sign Kirkham to Stansfield Junction, (near Todmorden), which means they sign about 40 miles or 50% of the Blackpool-Leeds route.

I was told that the fierce protectionist attitude of local depot reps is causing this situation and the result is that us passengers are basically subjected to either cancelled, (often with the train running ECS anyway), or crammed in on the next over-crowded service.
As has been mentioned before, the service frequency should be increased, at least between Bradford and Preston to every half hour.

But, as long as the unions take this attitude the passengers will suffer.

Anybody else wonder why the UK railways are such a mess.....?

It’s amazing how Northern threads come back to Blackpool and ASLEF being the problem.

Blackburn for whatever reason functions amazingly in comparison. It should be allowed to thrive and massively increase in scale.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I agree with you.
I'm not sure about Bradford to Preston, but I think they could do with more trains running between say Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn towards Preston and back, particularly in the summer months. Or maybe even just a Blackburn to Preston shuttle to relieve pressure from the Blackpool North for connections at Preston.

I was thinking similarly in terms of relieving the East Lancs to Preston section, but I'd thought about extending the Headbolt Lane - Blackburn terminators to Preston. Living in Todmorden this obviously has with an element of self-interest, but it might be a sop to those in the town who were disgusted they didn't get a through train to Blackpool 'like Hebden Bridge has'.

 

[JD2168]

12:15pm Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly was formed of a 2 car Class 150 today, usually a 3 car Class 195. In the platform announcement on the tannoy was an apology for the train have less carriages than normal.

 

[Killingworth]

12:15pm Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly was formed of a 2 car Class 150 today, usually a 3 car Class 195. In the platform announcement on the tannoy was an apology for the train have less carriages than normal.

A few unusual incidents probably contributing to that yesterday and today but it all comes back to them not having enough spare units to cover anything that goes wrong.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding 150s on Hope Valley services this seems to happen frequently at the moment usually at least a couple of times a week, don't forget that Northern have still got a few 195s out of service at the moment including the 2 that got derailed earlier this year in Barrow and despite the fact that 195133 keeps moving round Newton Heath Depot unless anyone knows any different it hasn't re entered service as of yet.

 

[Killingworth]

Regarding 150s on Hope Valley services this seems to happen frequently at the moment usually at least a couple of times a week, don't forget that Northern have still got a few 195s out of service at the moment including the 2 that got derailed earlier this year in Barrow and despite the fact that 195133 keeps moving round Newton Heath Depot unless anyone knows any different it hasn't re entered service as of yet.

Short forming is better than zero forming!

3 return services missing on the Hope Valley route this evening following 3 yesterday evening. Since the pay dispute was settled services on this route seem to be getting worse, certainly not better.

Bus substitutes from Sheffield will extend journey times a lot.

2 Premier 16 seaters depart Sheffield at 23:00 calling all stations to Chinley then set down to Manchester Piccadilly. 1 Bestway full sized bus to depart New Mills Central at 23:35 calling at all stations to Manchester Piccadilly.

Updated on Sunday morning. Looks like first service of the day is cancelled and seemingly every third throughout the day. Currently the first to run will be the 8.45 from Piccadilly, showing on RTT as 6 car 195117 and 195130. (I suspect one of those may not run.) The second train is showing as 150122 and 150148 so capacity on the route is fine - on the trains that run.

 

[stan claire]

Today’s scene on the Blackpool-Manchester route, every 6 car diagram (except one, 0622 off Blackpool) has been swapped for a 3, let’s also note that the 4 car diagrams are their usual formation when they could’ve easily swapped 6 for 4 then 4 for 3 on the quieter services they operate. At this point, bring the 323s. Might be a huge downgrade from the 331s with the quality but at least they don’t get full and drive past stations

 

[cjbirkett]

Theres a single 156 on a Liverpool-Wigan stoppers diagram today too. I'm not complaining however

If it's still on the diagram forming the 17.13 from Liverpool as currently indicated there may be some teeth gnashing from punters however!

Mind you I remember the days when virtually everything was a single 142. I think they used prods to get the doors shut at Lime Street in the peak sometimes

 

[yorksrob]

Short forming is better than zero forming!

3 return services missing on the Hope Valley route this evening following 3 yesterday evening. Since the pay dispute was settled services on this route seem to be getting worse, certainly not better.

Bus substitutes from Sheffield will extend journey times a lot.

There seems to be a hell of a lot of zero forming on routes out of Sheffield as well these past few days.

Seem to be staffing issues at the depot.

 

[jonnyfan]

Today’s scene on the Blackpool-Manchester route, every 6 car diagram (except one, 0622 off Blackpool) has been swapped for a 3, let’s also note that the 4 car diagrams are their usual formation when they could’ve easily swapped 6 for 4 then 4 for 3 on the quieter services they operate. At this point, bring the 323s. Might be a huge downgrade from the 331s with the quality but at least they don’t get full and drive past stations

The problem at the minute is the poor availability of 323s, so the 331s are having to sub for 323s out of Piccadilly. I think I counted 4 extra 331s covering for 323s today on the Stoke and Crewe services.
The 323s need sorting out, awaiting parts apparently, but I'm not sure the exact issue with them.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Time to bring back the pacers and 153s that should never have left without a suitable alternative.

The Bradford to Blackpool service was full and standing before Accrington.

Not a good look for Northern at all.

 

[skyhigh]

Time to bring back the pacers and 153s that should never have left without a suitable alternative.

Do you have a time machine handy?

 

[yorksrob]

The problem at the minute is the poor availability of 323s, so the 331s are having to sub for 323s out of Piccadilly. I think I counted 4 extra 331s covering for 323s today on the Stoke and Crewe services.
The 323s need sorting out, awaiting parts apparently, but I'm not sure the exact issue with them.

Aren't there a load of 323's going spare in Brum ?

 

[jonnyfan]

Aren't there a load of 323's going spare in Brum ?

That's what I don't understand, 17 have transferred up from the West Midlands, yet there's such a struggle for 323 availability

 

[thealexweb]

The problem at the minute is the poor availability of 323s, so the 331s are having to sub for 323s out of Piccadilly. I think I counted 4 extra 331s covering for 323s today on the Stoke and Crewe services.
The 323s need sorting out, awaiting parts apparently, but I'm not sure the exact issue with them.

This is mental. Northern currently has one of the largest oversupplies of EMUs on the west side in recent years.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This is mental. Northern currently has one of the largest oversupplies of EMUs on the west side in recent years.

Because of a bunch of 323s that a lot of staff aren't trained to use (I belive Blackpool and Wigan, among others, are undergoing training currently)?
And, as said above, the 323s are apparently awaiting repair parts.

 

[sandpiper]

As I understand it one of the reasons that there are so many cancellations in the North-West of England currently is because there is a big push to get Blackpool drivers trained on 323s, the Bolton to Manchester Vic and Blackburn to Clitheroe routes. So, along with the schools half-term there is a big shortage of train-crew with long lists of cancellations and trains that only run in service for part of their journey.
And not to forget, there is no week-day rest-day agreement for drivers.
Ironically, rest-day Sundays ARE allowed for drivers which means there is a full compliment of drivers on Sundays.........but virtually no conductors! You really couldn't make it up!

 

[scrapy]

I've heard a rest day agreement for drivers has now been agreed between ASLEF and Northern and is awaiting DFT approval.