I thought they’d agreed one last year after a long period of not having one. Presumably it wasn’t extended - any idea why?
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Northern Short Forming Again
- Thread starter MichaelTrains
- Start date
I thought they’d agreed one last year after a long period of not having one. Presumably it wasn’t extended - any idea why?
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R
RailUK Forums
Ran out at the end of August. I believe it wasn't extended due to issues with management not following agreed disciplinary procedures with certain drivers plus the fact that other TOCs (Avanti and TPE in particular) had agreed much superior rest day deals and Northern weren't offering anything similar.
NorthWestRover
Established Member
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- 24 Aug 2018
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- 1,524
It really is a basket case of a company.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
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- 1,519
Yes, the OLR have well and truly run it in to the ground. It seems there's no vision or desire to improve, it's just a constant mess of cancellations, short forms and truly awful customer service. They know they can get away with the current shambles as no-one will challenge them, and there's no implications for the senior management for their failures.
Killingworth
Established Member
I'm not so sure nobody will challenge them. If all the user complaints they're receiving aren't challenging enough you can bet user groups, politicians and the likes of DFT, TfN and Transport Focus are.
Jamesrob637
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- 5,568
06:46 Buxton to Manchester Piccadilly really needs to be booked 4-car, particularly as the 07:10 Hazel Grove to Manchester Piccadilly is often cancelled.
It was booked 4-car during the few weeks the 07:10 wasn't running, so why this can't be a permanent thing is beyond me.
It was booked 4-car during the few weeks the 07:10 wasn't running, so why this can't be a permanent thing is beyond me.
MichaelTrains
Member
Currently on a three-car 195 to York and it’s full and standing leaving people behind at Halifax.
How long is this farce going to continue?
Do the government care at all?
How long is this farce going to continue?
Do the government care at all?
That's the booked formation, so it's not a short form.
MichaelTrains
Member
I will go disagree with you.
If you think that it’s acceptable to be running what is effectively a Trans Pennine route between Blackpool - Preston - Blackburn - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds and York as a three car service then something is wrong.
The regular crush loadings on this route need urgent attention.
InkyScrolls
Established Member
But by definition if that's the booked traction, it's not a short form. Whether that's 'right' or not is a different question.
The thread is about short forms - i.e. trains turning up shorter than booked.
All Blackpool services are booked 3 car, you were on a 3 car. You can disagree with me as much as you like, but that's not a short form.
Throughout the last 6 pages you've been complaining about short forms and have been told it's essentially because there is not enough stock. If diagrams cannot be consistently formed at the booked length, where on earth is the stock coming from to lengthen booked workings?
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have everything running as 6 car and loads of capacity. But until more stock arrives or there is a massive change in 195 availability there is very little that can be done without stealing capacity from other routes.
175001
On Moderation
Agreed. If it was 2 vice 4 on a Calder Valley we'd understand as they do need 4 cars.
It doesn't help that Blackpool and Leeds depots won't let Blackburn crews work the Blackpool-Yorks because of fierce depot-work-protectionism despite Blackburn often having spare drivers and conductors that could work cancelled services, (if they were allowed to learn the route and traction), which in turn lead to overcrowded subsequent 3 car trains, (which are to short for the very busy route anyway).
The drivers union at local/company level has a huge amount of influence on the decisions made at company level which is causing a lot of the problems being suffered by the travelling public.
The drivers union at local/company level has a huge amount of influence on the decisions made at company level which is causing a lot of the problems being suffered by the travelling public.
Killingworth
Established Member
Although union agreements certainly have a role in the crewing of services how much does that impact on short forming? That seems to be about lack of serviceable rolling stock where it's needed.
Are 195s fault prone leaving too few to fulfil all scheduled diagrams? Losing 2 units after the Barrow line derailment was bound to have an effect on deployment of a tightly used fleet but there are suggestions that general availability is below expectations.
MichaelTrains
Member
Fair response. I’m guessing this is the future of the government owed railway.
It’s no fun being crush-loaded on these services on an almost daily basis. Three and two-car 195s are totally inadequate for the York-Blackpools. But I understand nothing is going to change anytime soon.
It just seems madness that you can get a four-car 158 on a Halifax to Hull which is never anywhere near full at capacity, yet the York-Blackpools are clearly struggling due to lack of capacity.
I'd rather have a four-car 158 over a 2/3-car 195.
LkmtvMetatarsl
Member
There's a couple of busy workings for the four-car set on the Hull - Halifax, the 0717 from Hull and the 1717 from Halifax. Both can leave passengers behind if only two cars.
Mancboy
Member
ENC Rail
Member
Just checked RTT and it's showing as a 6 car 323.
Mancboy
Member
Can 6 cars fit on Congletons short platforms?
Lewisham2221
Established Member
According to Wikipedia, a 323 is ~70m long, so a 6 car is ~140m. Sectional Appendix has the platform lengths as P1 154m and P2 118m. So yes and no. RTT is showing all 3 Stoke diagrams as double units today (2 x 6 car 323 and 1 x 6 car 331) and AIUI it's not unheard of for Northern to operate 6 cars on this route at weekends when it's expected to be busy, so they must have a 'method of working' to deal with the northbound platform at Congleton
Yes Southbound. Rear coach will be locked out until Stockport on northbound as doesn't fit at Prestbury or Cheadle Hulme either.
MichaelTrains
Member
Boarded the 18.57 to Leeds at Manchester Victoria earlier today to find it was a two-car 195.
Ended up being nearly 30 minutes late into Leeds due to overcrowding with even a wheelchair user left behind at Rochdale because they couldn't get anymore people on.
I'll say it again but it is an absolute disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Crush load everyone onto a two car train which links three of the UKs top ten populous cities.
Utterly disgraceful.
Ended up being nearly 30 minutes late into Leeds due to overcrowding with even a wheelchair user left behind at Rochdale because they couldn't get anymore people on.
I'll say it again but it is an absolute disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Crush load everyone onto a two car train which links three of the UKs top ten populous cities.
Utterly disgraceful.
I'm sure that wasn't ideal, but if the alternative is cancelling the train?
I was a bit surprised to find a 6-car 195 on the Windermere shuttle when I rode it late morning today, well in excess of requirement at the time but I'm sure diagrammed to be somewhere where that capacity was needed in the peaks.
I was a bit surprised to find a 6-car 195 on the Windermere shuttle when I rode it late morning today, well in excess of requirement at the time but I'm sure diagrammed to be somewhere where that capacity was needed in the peaks.
MichaelTrains
Member
This is the issue with Northern, poor diagram planning. I've regular been crush-loaded on two car 195s Manchester to Leeds and Blackpool to Yorks whilst four car 158s roam around carrying fresh air on Leeds to Wigan’s and Halifax to Hull’s.
It’s unacceptable what is happening.
I can tell you for a fact the Wigan Leeds trains are equally as busy, all the Leeds trains are, none of them are carrying fresh air. It's not down to "Northern" that the 195s are broken those complaints should be aimed at CAFs crappy product. Your train of course is booked as 4 cars as is the 1921 which actually was 4 cars but people don't like to wait, yes why should they, but still the option is there Vs ramming on a two car. In the end the 1921 had caught up the 57 almost at Leeds.
Additionally 158s cannot go onto the 57 services off Victoria because of interworking with the Leeds - Chester. Liverpool drivers and guards do not sign 158s.
99 percent of all the 6 car working is on Barrow and Windermere work and will likely remain so. 6 car 195s do not fit in the bays at Victoria unfortunately
Oh one more thing, Hull drivers and guards don't sign 195s. So yes "poor diagraming" Vs the actual reasons why.
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Yes it's unacceptable. But considering all the replies and explanations to your original post on 19th October 2023, what is your new proposal to solve this. Bearing in mind that all your previous proposals have already been shown to not work. Please do tell us as we are all still waiting for a solution that will work, not just on the Calder Valley route but on all the other routes across the Northern Network that equally suffer as yours does....
MichaelTrains
Member
I’m not disagreeing that other services are just as busy but as someone who uses the Northern network daily, there are some services that are strengthened when other services are in need of strengthened services a lot more.
Running two car 195s on busy Blackpool to York and Manchester to Leeds via Bradford services is unacceptable.
It’s clear Northern simply does not care about serving the people of the North with adequate train services.
Otherwise they would take action over trains being nearly 30 minutes late due to regular 3/4 minute dwell times at stations because the services are that crush loaded.
How about they just cancel some services elsewhere to strengthen those 2 car services? How about Piccadilly to Rose Hill Marple loses it's hourly 2 car crush loaded service to strengthen your services. Or maybe we should cancel your 2 car train to strengthen the Rose Hill Marple instead?
Northern have been dealt a bad hand by successive franchise holders and by the previous government. They are dealing with it as best they can, but apparently this means they don't care.....
Once again what is your proposal to sort out the issues bearing in mind you have already had all the. Information regarding rolling stock availability etc given to you over the past few months.
If you can come up with a workable proposal that will work tomorrow, then I have a bridge and some magic beans to sell you....
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