Northern Smart Card

[sheff1]

I really do think Southern should not be selling such a smart ticket on that route, which has such a significant restriction over the paper ticket of the same price.

Restricting (or claiming to restrict) the availability of a 'smart' ticket to something less than the availability of a paper ticket seems to be a common occurrence on the railway. I see nothing smart about such reductions in validity and do wonder why people seem so keen to buy these products.

 

[transmanche]

There are four main scenarios that happen:

1. They check on a smartphone app on their phone or ticket machine. Anyone can download the free ECEBS Smart Ticket Checker for Android if you want to do it yourself (and maybe show that to them!!!)
2. They believe that your ticket is valid and wave you through.
3. They don't believe your ticket is valid despite you having a valid one.
4. Proper railway integration means all gatelines will be set up for the ITSO cards to be used.

Sorry number 4 was a joke

Although Northern and T&W Metro tickets are inter-available between Newcastle and Sunderland, officially Nexus require Pop card holders to get a record card in order to travel on Northern trains. (A bit like getting a Gold Card Record card.) But they are only available from the six Nexus TravelShops, which are only open Mon-Fri. Most are only open approx 08:30-170 and some even close for lunch.

So needless to say, no-one has one. What happens in practice is that you just wave the Pop card at the conductor and they are happy.

DORIS can read ITSO cards and the LNER gatelines will read ITSO by the summer

About time too. Pop cards have only been around for 7 years or so, it's frustrating to have to be let through every time. Gateline staff at Newcastle seem to have no idea what the card is - I've even had them try to scan it with their laser barcode scanner on a few occasions!

 

[Wallsendmag]

The Newcastle Gateline staff have phones capable of reading ITSO currently.

 

[transmanche]

The Newcastle Gateline staff have phones capable of reading ITSO currently.

As I said, they don't seem to use them. But I have had them try to scan it with the laser as if it were a 2-D barcode!

 

[mattdickinson]

Yes I've just had it confirmed by southern that a weekly season (not a travelcard) on "the key" cannot be used on London Overground (West London line) for part of the journey. That is a major restriction compared to a paper ticket, since the overground trains from clapham are much more frequent tham the southern ones. Southern did say they thought it would change in the spring, which I guess is July date mentioned above.

I really do think Southern should not be selling such a smart ticket on that route, which has such a significant restriction over the paper ticket of the same price.

I also raised the point with them that I felt there map for "the key" should make clearer the restriction, since I felt the current map was misleading.

Which season ticket are they claiming is not valid? Keygo (GTR's pay as you go offering isn't valid on London Overground), but any other ticket (unless routed Southern Only) is valid on London Overground.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Which season ticket are they claiming is not valid? Keygo (GTR's pay as you go offering isn't valid on London Overground), but any other ticket (unless routed Southern Only) is valid on London Overground.

I asked if I bought a weekly season between Horsham (HRH) and Shepherd's Bush (SPB) via Clapham Jct costing £91.70 on the "key" could I use the London Overground trains between Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Shepherd's Bush.

Their reply was:

I can confirm the Key is currently only accepted by London Overground if there is a travelcard ticket on the Key card. There is currently a national project underway to enable interoperability of smartcards across train companies, so it may be that London Overground will be able to accept other Key tickets once the project is completed. This is expected to be in the spring.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I asked if I bought a weekly season between Horsham (HRH) and Shepherd's Bush (SPB) via Clapham Jct costing £91.70 on the "key" could I use the London Overground trains between Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Shepherd's Bush.

Their reply was:

That, to put it politely, a load of nonsense by GTR. LO are contractually obliged to accept the ticket - fares regulation requires GTR to set an interavailable season ticket fare, and for LO to accept it. Accordingly, the smartcard season ticket has a geographic, and not a TOC, restriction. Therefore, as per the NRCoT, it is valid on any operator who operates along a permitted route.

A big stink needs to be raised about this. It is frankly ludicrous that, despite Oyster having been rolled out across London for over a decade and a half, and having been accepted on every LO service since their inception, TfL are suggesting they intend to commit severe breaches of contract.

This would be a very interesting case if any TfL members of staff were silly enough to cause any problems with your ticket.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I followed up with GTR about if their smart card ticket was valid but not accepted by London Overground, I got the following reply.....

The issue that would prevent you from traveling on London Overground services is that the staff have no way to read the ticket on your Key Smartcard. While the ticket is valid for all of the same routes as the equivalent paper ticket there is currently no way for you to present a valid ticket on their services. If you travel on a service and are not able to present a valid ticket you are liable to receive a penalty fare or prosecution from the train company you are traveling with.


So if I present this valid ticket but London Overground can't read it can I really get a penalty fare? It doesn't seem right to me. Welcome any advice.

 

[Hadders]

The fact that the smart card cannot be read by LO staff is no concern of the passenger. Unless the ticket carries a 'not valid on LO' restriction then it's valid on their services. LO need to equip the staff with the appropriate equipment.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I followed up with GTR about if their smart card ticket was valid but not accepted by London Overground, I got the following reply.....

The issue that would prevent you from traveling on London Overground services is that the staff have no way to read the ticket on your Key Smartcard. While the ticket is valid for all of the same routes as the equivalent paper ticket there is currently no way for you to present a valid ticket on their services. If you travel on a service and are not able to present a valid ticket you are liable to receive a penalty fare or prosecution from the train company you are traveling with.


So if I present this valid ticket but London Overground can't read it can I really get a penalty fare? It doesn't seem right to me. Welcome any advice.

No, they are, as usual, talking rubbish. The ability of LO staff to inspect your ticket has no bearing on its validity. It would be like saying "e-tickets aren't valid on London Overground because the staff don't have barcode scanners". Totally ludicrous.

Oyster Travelcards are perfectly valid for use on LNER services which go first stop Stevenage from King's Cross, if you also hold a Boundary Zone X to Stevenage ticket. Yet I wouldn't have thought that the LNER Train Managers have Oyster readers. That doesn't make it an invalid combination.

If your ticket is valid, then it is valid regardless of the format it's held on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they are, as usual, talking rubbish. The ability of LO staff to inspect your ticket has no bearing on its validity. It would be like saying "e-tickets aren't valid on London Overground because the staff don't have barcode scanners". Totally ludicrous.

E-tickets (new type) are only issued for journeys on which the TOC has a means to check them - not every journey. This rather backs up the premise you reject, doesn't it?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

E-tickets (new type) are only issued for journeys on which the TOC has a means to check them - not every journey. This rather backs up the premise you reject, doesn't it?

If the passenger has managed to get it issued, and the ticket doesn't have a relevant TOC restriction then, as per NRCoT provisions, it's valid on any TOC on a permitted route.

I really don't understand the obsession with 'hidden' attempted restrictions. Like certain Railcards not being valid on certain TOCs, certain discounted tickets (e.g. GroupSave) not being valid on certain TOCs, and so on. My means of dealing with this kind of nonsense is quite simple - if the restriction isn't printed on the ticket, it doesn't apply!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's been issued and doesn't have a relevant TOC restriction then, as per NRCoT provisions, it's valid on any TOC on a permitted route.

Then why can I not buy an e-ticket (new type) for any journey I wish?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Then why can I not buy an e-ticket (new type) for any journey I wish?

It's down to the discretion of the retailer whether or not they want to issue it. If they do, it has to be accepted on all permitted routes and TOCs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's down to the discretion of the retailer whether or not they want to issue it. If they do, it has to be accepted on all permitted routes and TOCs.

No that is incorrect, to introduce e-Tickets on a route the flow owning TOC has to get agreement from all other TOCs that could see the ticket on their services.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

No that is incorrect, to introduce e-Tickets on a route the flow owning TOC has to get agreement from all other TOCs that could see the ticket on their services.

Oh no, that's not what I meant. What I meant is that it is ultimately the retailer's choice how they will permit tickets to be fulfilled. If they do so by a means that the flow owner, and/or another TOC, isn't happy with, that is an issue between them and the retailer, and certainly not an issue that requires the customer's involvement.

If Southern are selling interavailable season tickets on The Key for journeys that have route-wise validity on London Overground, London Overground should be taking them to task if they are not happy with this arrangement. They should not be taking any action against the customers for exercising their contractual rights, and it is potentially a criminal offence for GTR to be spreading misleading nonsense about the legal position.

 

[Wallsendmag]

But before we get to that point all the TOCs should have agreed to accept the e-Tickets.

 

[Haywain]

What I meant is that it is ultimately the retailer's choice how they will permit tickets to be fulfilled.

That is wrong. It is the choice of the TOC pricing the flow how tickets can be fulfilled. 3rd party retailers must restrict fulfilment to methods specified by the pricing TOC, and would be acting outside of their accreditation if they did otherwise.

 

[Hadders]

No that is incorrect, to introduce e-Tickets on a route the flow owning TOC has to get agreement from all other TOCs that could see the ticket on their services.

You can see what’s happened here. GTR won’t have spoken to LO about validity as they won’t have realised that some of the tickets they price are valid on LO. Same probably applies to other TOCs as well.

Typical GTR although from a passenger point of view if they have a smart ticket valid for use on a route which is operated by LO then it has to be accepted.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is wrong. It is the choice of the TOC pricing the flow how tickets can be fulfilled. 3rd party retailers must restrict fulfilment to methods specified by the pricing TOC, and would be acting outside of their accreditation if they did otherwise.

Well, according to the contract between the retailer and the TOCs (i.e. accreditation), perhaps. But that is of no concern to the passenger caught in the middle of intra-industry squabbling.

 

[TheGarner]

Usually buy a season ticket between Warrington and Manchester. Often get on East Midlands and Northern trains. The person at the ticket office said the card can be used on both train companies. Is that actually the case?

 

[_toommm_]

Usually buy a season ticket between Warrington and Manchester. Often get on East Midlands and Northern trains. The person at the ticket office said the card can be used on both train companies. Is that actually the case?

Yep, as long as the ticket itself isn't restricted to Northern Only

 

[TheGarner]

Yep, as long as the ticket itself isn't restricted to Northern Only

Sweet, I checked the piece of paper you get and supposed to keep with your card if there is any problems. Doesn't specifically mention Northern services only anywhere. So I guess that is the case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yep, as long as the ticket itself isn't restricted to Northern Only

Sweet, I checked the piece of paper you get and supposed to keep with your card if there is any problems. Doesn't specifically mention Northern services only anywhere. So I guess that is the case.

A season ticket from Warrington to Manchester certainly can't be restricted to Northern only, as they are the "fare setter" and are therefore not allowed to set Northern-only fares (this being seen as a conflict of interest).

 

[_toommm_]

A season ticket from Warrington to Manchester certainly can't be restricted to Northern only, as they are the "fare setter" and are therefore not allowed to set Northern-only fares (this being seen as a conflict of interest).

Fair point - I didn't check BRFares so I wanted to just give general advice on the subject matter.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Thanks, this is the smartcard ticket I queried GTR about....
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=HRH&dest=SPB&rte=602&tkt=0AQ
The part between Clapham and Shepherd's bush is the part where you can use London overground, who have a more regular service.

I don't fancy be the person getting hassled by a LO ticket checker, so any advice on how to get this clarified. Should I contact London Overground about this, or London Travelwatch or some other body?

I know people making a similar journey who use the key rather than queue to buy/collect day tickets, but they switch onto oyster at clapham, rather use the key for the whole journey due to this GTR misinformation (which result in a higher cost to them).

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks, this is the smartcard ticket I queried GTR about....
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=HRH&dest=SPB&rte=602&tkt=0AQ
The part between Clapham and Shepherd's bush is the part where you can use London overground, who have a more regular service.

I don't fancy be the person getting hassled by a LO ticket checker, so any advice on how to get this clarified. Should I contact London Overground about this, or London Travelwatch or some other body?

I know people making a similar journey who use the key rather than queue to buy/collect day tickets, but they switch onto oyster at clapham, rather use the key for the whole journey due to this GTR misinformation (which result in a higher cost to them).

I guess the thing you've got to remember is that you're buying the same ticket as someone who's got a paper ticket; paying the same price; and using it to travel the same journey as you would with a paper ticket. The only difference is, you're carrying plastic, and the other person is carrying paper.

As long as you carry a ticket that is valid on LO ticket, there really is no doubt as to whether it is valid, and any potential Penalty Fare or prosecution brought against you would be quashed straight away. Admittedly, you may get 'confrontation' in the first few months while LO get their act together, but as long as you carry your receipt, there is undoubtedly no way you could be penalised for it.

If you do encounter Revenue Protection, be polite, but sincere about your case - your ticket is valid. If it comes to it and they ask for your details, politely comply, then come back to us for help. Fight like a dog and don't let go until they realise they are well and truly in the wrong.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks, this is the smartcard ticket I queried GTR about....
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=HRH&dest=SPB&rte=602&tkt=0AQ
The part between Clapham and Shepherd's bush is the part where you can use London overground, who have a more regular service.

I don't fancy be the person getting hassled by a LO ticket checker, so any advice on how to get this clarified. Should I contact London Overground about this, or London Travelwatch or some other body?

I know people making a similar journey who use the key rather than queue to buy/collect day tickets, but they switch onto oyster at clapham, rather use the key for the whole journey due to this GTR misinformation (which result in a higher cost to them).

Wow, I would certainly not recommend paying extra to make use of rights you already have!

Whilst I can appreciate it may be uncomfortable if a London Overground inspector of some kind takes umbrage to your (valid) ticket, the key is not to get into any kind of heated debate. Tell them the simple facts - that your ticket is valid, and that it is not your concern how they wish to inspect it.

If they won't accept that as an answer, comply with whatever they require - be that giving your details for a Penalty Fare or similar. Then fight it afterwards (we will be happy to help!).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Wow, I would certainly not recommend paying extra to make use of rights you already have!

Whilst I can appreciate it may be uncomfortable if a London Overground inspector of some kind takes umbrage to your (valid) ticket, the key is not to get into any kind of heated debate. Tell them the simple facts - that your ticket is valid, and that it is not your concern how they wish to inspect it.

If they won't accept that as an answer, comply with whatever they require - be that giving your details for a Penalty Fare or similar. Then fight it afterwards (we will be happy to help!).

If only real life was so simple.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If only real life was so simple.

Err, please elaborate!