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Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

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Starmill

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For a state-subsidised operation, my feeling is that installing ticket machines at Denton and Reddish South is a shocking waste of public money. We as taxpayers and fare-payers will be paying for this nonsense for how long, exactly?

And don't tell me they're a requirement for the Penalty Fares scheme, London Midland manage just fine excluding Polesworth from their scheme (they also exclude Bedworth, Whitlocks End and Wilmcote which I find quite surprising given these stations are actually used, unlike Polesworth, Denton or Reddish South).
 
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Bungle965

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3/4 ticket machines are in operation at Rochdale with the idea being that when the barriers are in operation the staff will let any people through who need to use the ticket office.
Can't wait to see how long the ticket machines last before being wrecked by the feral youths in the area.
Sam
 

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Bletchleyite

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And don't tell me they're a requirement for the Penalty Fares scheme, London Midland manage just fine excluding Polesworth from their scheme (they also exclude Bedworth, Whitlocks End and Wilmcote which I find quite surprising given these stations are actually used, unlike Polesworth, Denton or Reddish South).

I agree Denton and Reddish South make no sense. Ardwick makes massive sense, because it is served far more often than those two and therefore is a genuine gap ("I came from Ardwick mate"). The one at Ardwick doesn't even have to work as nobody ever actually goes there to see if it does or not.
 

xfield

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Surely the cost of installing and maintaining a machine at Ardwick will never be recouped - even if lots of people claim to have boarded there (remember there is only four services a day stopping there, so as long as staff know this then it can be difficult to claim it).
 

Starmill

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Even if 100 people a day currently claim to have joined one of the two services from Ardwick to Manchester there fradulently, and they each save maybe £2-3 on their fare as a result, how will the cost of installing and running that machine ever be justified? I think we can assume actual use of the machine to buy or collect tickets will be near zero.

Usage figures for Ardwick demonstrate that far, far fewer than 100 people per day buy tickets from Ardwick. I really don't think that it has an effect.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's a fair point. FWIW, I'd say close it (and if the footbridge falls down they no doubt will, that'll make an impressive bang when it meets the 25kV) but I'd expect it may become useful within 10-20 years with new premium housing developments in the area.
 

Bantamzen

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Well I guess the contracts for the new TVMs will be like a lot of other large IT procurement contracts where the kit is leased rather than owned outright. So in terms of overall cost (even taking into account the installations) there would not be a lot of difference overall to Northern.

However, even though these lesser used TVMs will not return their full value in terms of direct revenue, the occasional fare evader arriving at Piccadilly will no longer be able to use the "Got on at Ardwick mate" line. A quick call should now be possible to confirm if the TVM was online, and if so then Northern revenue staff can start prosecution proceedings as the evader will really have no other defence. So it is as much about changing the culture on Northern's service, once all the machines are in then save the occasional fault few people will be able to get away with not paying, or at least short-paying by pretending that the last stop before a check was their starting point. This in the long run will pay for itself, by providing a genuine deterrent to the few among us who seek to avoid buying a valid ticket for the length of their journey. Goodness knows how much Northern have lost over the years (I've witnessed a lot myself), so I'd say it makes sense overall.
 

Leyland155

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Whilst I do agree that fare evaders should have no defence in terms of failing to buy a ticket, as I understand it however, these new ticket machines accept card only. What protocols are in place if a passenger says that they wanted to (or had no other option but to) pay with cash?
 
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Starmill

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However, even though these lesser used TVMs will not return their full value in terms of direct revenue, the occasional fare evader arriving at Piccadilly will no longer be able to use the "Got on at Ardwick mate" line. A quick call should now be possible to confirm if the TVM was online, and if so then Northern revenue staff can start prosecution proceedings as the evader will really have no other defence.

But both points have already been addressed... They won't be used and they won't help gain more than a trivial amount from the fare evaders. The ticket machines could be used at stations instead where people will actually use them.

As for culture problems, does it cause a culture problem having Wilmcote, Bordesley, Polesworth, Barlaston, Wedgwood and The Lakes excluded from PF schemes? I don't think it does.
 

Starmill

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Whilst I do agree that fare evaders should have no defence in terms of failing to buy a ticket, as I understand it however, these new ticket machines accept card only. What protocols are in place if a passenger says that they wanted to (or had no other option but to) pay with cash?
Currently, such passengers are often required to give their name and address on a UFN and pay the fare by card online or cheque (or postal order, for what that's worth). Cash isn't an option.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Just used the new Batley ticket machine for the first time, to top up my MCard. It worked fine (though I never had any issues with the old one) but as I've been housebound for a week I hadn't realised that today was a strike day!

Not a fan of the way TPE are putting MCard logos all over their ticket machines at HUD and DEW despite them not yet having the facility to top-up though! <(
 

Bantamzen

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But both points have already been addressed... They won't be used and they won't help gain more than a trivial amount from the fare evaders. The ticket machines could be used at stations instead where people will actually use them.

As for culture problems, does it cause a culture problem having Wilmcote, Bordesley, Polesworth, Barlaston, Wedgwood and The Lakes excluded from PF schemes? I don't think it does.

Sorry, what do non-Northern stations have to do with Northern's policy on fare evasion? Like I said, it is more than likely they lease the units, and as such will not micro-manage every single cost the way some on here seem to insist on. If a lightly used machine eventually stops fare evasion from around the area, then it is money well spent.
 

Bletchleyite

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Most likely they have let a blanket contract for TVMs at every station in a defined area, and won't get 5 grand back just by leaving a couple out. Same as the new signage which was unnecessarily installed at Denton/Reddish South.
 

Starmill

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Sorry, what do non-Northern stations have to do with Northern's policy on fare evasion?

Because every other operator does Penalty Fares broadly the same way. They provide proper facilities - or they exclude a range of stations. They provide facilities in a proportionate and sensible way, which almost always includes accepting cash. They also have sensible systems for dealing with exceptions which do not involve 'Promise to Pay' notices or issues where stations with one service per week have significant amounts of money spent on them. Northern, it would seem, are attempting to reinvent the wheel. The current formula seems to work, so why is Northern's Penalty Fare scheeme going to be completely unlike all of the others?
 

Starmill

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If a lightly used machine eventually stops fare evasion from around the area, then it is money well spent.

We have already established that it won't have a significant effect. I'm not sure why you think it would do - most people won't even know that it is there.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because every other operator does Penalty Fares broadly the same way. They provide proper facilities - or they exclude a range of stations. They provide facilities in a proportionate and sensible way, which almost always includes accepting cash. They also have sensible systems for dealing with exceptions which do not involve 'Promise to Pay' notices or issues where stations with one service per week have significant amounts of money spent on them. Northern, it would seem, are attempting to reinvent the wheel. The current formula seems to work, so why is Northern's Penalty Fare scheeme going to be completely unlike all of the others?

LM does not have any cash TVMs, which means a £20 note (or several depending on the fare) is a get out of jail free card if the ticket office was closed, as they often are (or there isn't one, as per Cheddington). I think the Promise to Pay thing is a genuinely good idea to avoid this being the case to the same extent (or people claiming to have got on at the equivalent of Cheddington when they didn't). It's basically an updated Permit to Travel. They could put one of those in, of course, but then they'd have to go and empty a fiver's worth of 5ps out of it every week or two at quite some cost. (Did anyone ever put more than 5p in one of those?)
 

WatcherZero

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TVM's cost in the region of £30,000 about the same as a all the employment costs of an unskilled full time staff member for one year, they offer advantage in that they operate 24 hours meaning they are more efficient than requiring multiple staff members to cover shifts selling tickets and it is mostly a single year cost. The manufacturers usually then provide maintenance, servicing and replacement for one inclusive servicing fee per machine, kind of like a car extended warranty agreement.

The point of installing the machine there even though it might be little used is it allows them to then fine people who turn up at their destination and try to buy a ticket from that origin as they have boarded without using available ticket buying facilities. Northern is transitioning to a requirement for all passengers to have bought tickets before boarding. If you have bypassed a ticket office/TVM/mobile ticketing opportunity and not bought from a staff member on the train you wont in future be able to buy a ticket at your destination.
 

Bletchleyite

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£30K? Really?

I'd have expected a few grand, maybe ten at most, but how on earth do they cost *that* much?

OK, coin mechanisms cost, but a card one is basically a PC with a printer in a heavy metal box.
 

Starmill

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They have to be supplied with power and be made online somehow, and these ones have very large and doubtless very expensive screens.
 

sheff1

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The point of installing the machine there even though it might be little used is it allows them to then fine people who turn up at their destination and try to buy a ticket from that origin .

It allows no such thing.

Northern is transitioning to a requirement for all passengers to have bought tickets before boarding. If you have bypassed a ticket office/TVM/mobile ticketing opportunity and not bought from a staff member on the train you wont in future be able to buy a ticket at your destination.

So Northern are also going to stop complying with the NRCoT ?

Some interesting court cases ahead it would seem.
 

Bletchleyite

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They have to be supplied with power and be made online somehow, and these ones have very large and doubtless very expensive screens.

A telly with a screen that size is, what, £400?

I don't doubt they would be expensive, they're just about a factor of 3-4 out from what I expected.
 

Starmill

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No, you have established nothing. All you have done is speculate.

We have though... It is impossible for more than 896 people last year to have bought tickets from Ardwick when they actually travelled from somewhere else. It's possible (although very, very unlikely) that all 869 of them did indeed travel from elsewhere. The only places they could have actually come from are all within Greater Manchester, and the furthest anyone could have come is from either Marple or Glossop / Hadfield. If someone came from Glossop, lied and said they had actually come from Ardwick, they would save £2.60 on a single. Even if all 869 people who bought tickets from Ardwick last year did so fraudulently and thus saved £2.60 that is a tiny amount of revenue for a company that has revenue approaching £300m a year from fares. Ardwick is having no impact on that large enough to be measured. Nobody has any logical reasoning for installing machines there. If there is a logical reason then why have the other stations I've named not got ticket machines?
 

WatcherZero

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It allows no such thing.



So Northern are also going to stop complying with the NRCoT ?

Some interesting court cases ahead it would seem.

NrCOC says you must buy a ticket before travelling if able to do so and must obey ticket terms and conditions. 2010 act of parliament established rail bylaws apply to nrcoc.
 

Geeves

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Unskilled Watcher? That wasn't really required as those so called unskilled workers spend most days fixing the issues of these so called "smart" ticket machines. Yes a machine can work 24 hours a day until it needs fixing by the man in the office. I've no problem with tvms but they aren't the be all an end all an neither should cost comparisons be drawn between the two. The machine is an aid to the skilled man in the office and shouldn't be seen as anything more.
 

Bantamzen

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We have though... It is impossible for more than 896 people last year to have bought tickets from Ardwick when they actually travelled from somewhere else. It's possible (although very, very unlikely) that all 869 of them did indeed travel from elsewhere. The only places they could have actually come from are all within Greater Manchester, and the furthest anyone could have come is from either Marple or Glossop / Hadfield. If someone came from Glossop, lied and said they had actually come from Ardwick, they would save £2.60 on a single. Even if all 869 people who bought tickets from Ardwick last year did so fraudulently and thus saved £2.60 that is a tiny amount of revenue for a company that has revenue approaching £300m a year from fares. Ardwick is having no impact on that large enough to be measured. Nobody has any logical reasoning for installing machines there. If there is a logical reason then why have the other stations I've named not got ticket machines?

It won't be £2.60 any more though. With a TVM at Ardwick nobody can say they didn't have chance to buy a ticket there, so they will attract the penalty fare which will be at least £20. So if 869 people are caught in a year evading using the Ardwick excuse, Northern recoup at least half the value of the TVM by having it there, possibly a lot more. But again this is not the point, the whole idea is to make it all but impossible for anyone to use the excuse that they could not buy a ticket before boarding or by the time they arrive at their destination. There will of course occasionally be circumstances where it was not possible, i.e. the TVM at the start destination failed & the guard was unable to reach the passengers before the destination. And Northern will have to make allowances for this. But with a network of online TVMs, they can better monitor the situation and ensure that all evaders are penalised.

And if you step outside the box for a moment, then you will realise the other benefits derived from having TVMs everywhere. Guards will have more time for checking tickets and carrying out dispatch / safety duties with fewer on-board sales to make. This in return will reduce the need to have outsourced revenue staff which will reduce overheads further (and at the same time strengthen the argument to keep guards on trains and not go towards full DOO). Then once the smartcard / smartphone ticketing technology has been agreed, having connected TVMs means that Northern could start to offer season and pay-as-you-go cards with touch-in, touch-out devices attached to or alongside the TVMs.

So the benefits far outweigh the cost in the long run, if you spend a few moments rationalising it rather than playing accountancy micro-management this all becomes blindingly obvious.
 

scrapy

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The new ticket machines are capable of becoming virtual ticket offices with a software update in the future. The idea being that if you want a ticket office service you can press a button and it will connect with someone you can see and can see you and you will be able to have a conversation as you would at a ticket office today. The person can then issue the ticket you require and take payment off the machine. Split ticketing, rovers and rangers would all be available. The cynic in me says it would then be a lot easier to close ticket offices in the future as a centrally manned call centre would be a lot cheaper and possibly out sourced. It would also require fewer staff as staff would be able to deal with multiple locations.

Northern are also developing a smartcard with TPE although at a very early stage. They are investigating the possibility of anyone wanting to pay cash having to visit a paypoint (or similar) outlet to top up or obtain a card. This could then be used at card only machine to obtain a ticket. Obviously there would have to be sufficient shops open at all hours when trains are running but is something that already happens on London buses and may only work in large urban areas.

The discussion about Ardwick seems to have taken over this thread. There are a surprising number of regular people who get off the AM services from Marple and Rose Hill (up to 10 per train). The same people dont travel back from there in the evening peak as usually there is no one boarding the 2 trains that stop so I would assume the morning travellers return from Piccadilly or possibly Ashburys. It is therefore very unlikely that a ticket machine would have any use at all. Ardwick station usage figures are probably underestimated as people will have tickets to Manchester in order to return later.
 
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Chrisyd

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I thought I understood this but now am not to sure!

In my circumstances, I regular travel from either Hall i'th' Wood or Bromley Cross (depending upon where the wife is working that day depends upon where I get dropped off).

The other week I lost my Debit Card, so only had cash, at the moment from Hall i'th' Wood this was no issue as I bought at Salford Central. I assume Hall i'th' Wood will be receiving a ticket machine and it will be card only. When this has been installed, could I then be fined for not buying a ticket even though I only had cash and they provided no cash purchasing facilities? Obviously in the rush hour, you rarely get a seat at Hall i'th' Wood and if it is a carriage short getting on the train is not definite, so it would not be feasible to buy from the guard.
 

Bantamzen

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Northern are also developing a smartcard with TPE although at a very early stage. They are investigating the possibility of anyone wanting to pay cash having to visit a paypoint (or similar) outlet to top up or obtain a card. This could then be used at card only machine to obtain a ticket. Obviously there would have to be sufficient shops open at all hours when trains are running but is something that already happens on London buses and may only work in large urban areas.

The smartcards could also be loaded with a NFC capable device and associated application. Some WY MCards can now be loaded with NFC capable devices, so even in more rural areas with no early/late shops open it could still work. You could in theory even load an account with the required amount online prior to travel, then at the TVM load the account onto the card and/or purchase tickets. Obviously this will only work for people with access to NFC and/or the net, but the number of people without one or both is slowly reducing these days.
 
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