Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[Bikeman78]

The MD will have an agenda to try to agitate to force unions round the table to discuss a 'technology' productivity agreement. She will likely have said the word faxing even if she was well aware (no guarantees, I've bet some pretty clueless senior management in my time) that they're not faxes but scanned emails, because this implies more archaic practices than those that are actually used and suits her narrative.

Have I understood this correctly? The service is falling apart and the MD thought the solution was to attract ridicule from the press and simultaneously annoy the train crew that she needs to deliver the service?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The fax machines have already been replaced by digital systems. All business lines are now VOIP. Faxes are essentially just scanned to emails. The replies (if required) are then emailed to an admin/train crew supervisor at the local depot who will print and distribute them as required.


The same person gets any late notices or rosters via email and posts them on notice boards. In most cases, they are also the fire warden so if they're not present, the depot will not be open for crew.

I’m not sure where you have got this information from, but the 2 nearest Northern depots to me have no admin and no Train Crew Supervisor to perform the duties you mention.

Notices and rosters will be posted by a driver/conductor manager IF there is one around, otherwise they will be posted by train crew themselves.

Neither of these locations have a Northern fire warden.

 

[Bikeman78]

"Of course, Mr. Burnham. We'll fax it through as soon as it's ready"

Great minds think alike!

 

[D6130]

Have I understood this correctly? The service is falling apart and the MD thought the solution was to attract ridicule from the press and simultaneously annoy the train crew that she needs to deliver the service?

That's the calibre of senior managers in the TOCs nowadays. Most of them come from the retail sector, banking or human resources and are clueless about how the railway actually operates. (There are of course a few honourable exceptions....but becoming fewer and fewer).

 

[Bikeman78]

It was a typo all of my own. If I'd had autocorrect switched on it might have fixed it. The irony!

It's unlikely to have helped, unless your mistype was closer to progress than process. Speaking for myself, I write the wrong word far more often on my phone than I do typing on a PC. But we digress.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I still have cassette tapes and CDs. I'm a bit gutted that my new car doesn't have a CD player. I guess it will be the radio from now on.

Likewise, though our van only has a tape cassette!

A non starter in most cases, for the reasons explained to you already, and “the rest of us” aren’t safety critical traincrew. Once again you have no understanding of how things work, and a sneering disregard for the views of people who actually work in the industry.

This thread seems to have been based on a false premise to begin with, and has degenerated into the usual suspects attacking the industry and complaining, despite no understanding of the issues.

Where's that 'like' button...

 

[najaB]

Other than being old, what exactly is the problem with using faxes?

 

[dosxuk]

Most pilots now don't use printed charts, big thick books of airport diagrams and paper checklists. It's all on an iPad, always to to date, quicker to access and easier to carry around.
If highly unionised pilots can modernise (I mean, that paper did the job right?)

And then just before departure they'll probably be given a thick wad of dot-matrix printed details about the flight.

Plenty of aircraft also have a thermal printer in the cockpit which can be used to print off messages and information.

The iPad has only replaced the library pilots used to carry around. Paper is still key for the operation of most flights.

 

[Djgr]

Other than being old, what exactly is the problem with using faxes?

If you read this thread then you see that multiple posters have highlighted problems. Are you saying that ALL of these are invalid or do you just not want to read the thread?

 

[Dai Corner]

Other than being old, what exactly is the problem with using faxes?

The fundamental one is that the output is on paper at a pre-specified location. If the intended recipient isn't present the message either has to be retained until they arrive or forwarded by means of another fax, scanning or retyping and emailing, read out over the phone or by hand. These cause delay, take up staff time and are prone to loss or error.

 

[najaB]

If you read this thread then you see that multiple posters have highlighted problems. Are you saying that ALL of these are invalid or do you just not want to read the thread?

To be completely honest, I read the first three pages and it was pretty much all moaning about unions, and a few spurious objections.

The fundamental one is that the output is on paper at a pre-specified location. If the intended recipient isn't present the message either has to be retained until they arrive or forwarded by means of another fax, scanning or retyping and emailing, read out over the phone or by hand. These cause delay, take up staff time and are prone to loss or error.

So the issue isn't using faxes as much as it is using faxes where they aren't appropriate. It seems that for things such as rosters, catering orders, maintenance requests, etc. that faxes, while antiquated, would be perfectly suitable for the job.

 

[InkyScrolls]

To be completely honest, I read the first three pages and it was pretty much all moaning about unions, and a few spurious objections.

Business as usual then from certain quarters...

So the issue isn't using faxes as much as it is using faxes where they aren't appropriate. It seems that for things such as rosters, catering orders, maintenance requests, etc. that faxes, while antiquated, would be perfectly suitable for the job.

Exactly. They do a very specific job very well and until such a time as they no longer work, there's no real need to change that.

 

[Dai Corner]

So the issue isn't using faxes as much as it is using faxes where they aren't appropriate. It seems that for things such as rosters, catering orders, maintenance requests, etc. that faxes, while antiquated, would be perfectly suitable for the job.

Except that anyone not sat next to a fax machine all day (like on train caterers, drivers and guards) would have to find one before they could send their message. That might not be until they get back to the depot at the end of their day. No doubt things like catering orders and maintenance requests are typed into a computer system after the faxes are received, so why not enable the originator to enter them directly on a mobile device, or at least email them.

 

[dk1]

I often find that our rosters (from a modern printer) are hanging before they are available online. This may be down to the fact the rostering agreements minute that they have to be ‘posted in the rostering cabinet’ by 13:00 each weekday. The roster clerk therefore is quite within his/her rights to upload it later. In reality they tend not to be that much later as this just creates added workload for not only themselves but the duty traincrew managers.

 

[Stephen42]

Other than being old, what exactly is the problem with using faxes?

Additional equipment or maintenance of additional functions adds cost onto operations, there are also security considerations. With no knowledge of the Northern setup I'm not saying these apply here, but to answer the general question.

Many devices capable of fax these days are Multi Function Devices also used for printing. Frequently these will be connected to publicly accessible telephone lines and within the IT firewall for printing over the network. Anyone with the phone number for the fax can exploit vulnerabilities in the fax machine, a particularly nasty one was revealed in 2018 which involved remote arbitrary code execution on the fax machine by sending a carefully crafted fax. The best way around these attacks are to invest in more IT equipment to better separate the vulnerable fax away from the main IT network, separate telephone lines into internal only & external capable or eliminate the need for fax.

Fax origins can be easily spoofed and the advancements in email verification protocols makes fax easier to exploit. I wouldn't rely on anything coming out of a fax machine without detailed knowledge of the separation and controls in place. You also don't know if someone has come before you and destroyed any intended communications either.

 

[35B]

They do a very specific job very well and until such a time as they no longer work, there's no real need to change that.

Jobs that many organisations are taking away from paper, and having go direct from device to production system to increase auditability and remove a source of error and miscommunication.

 

[Horizon22]

A driver books on spare at 03.45. At 04.30 he is called and asked to taxi to a location to meet a train as someone has called in sick at another depot. He needs a diagram and pretty quickly, it’s not one of his depot’s jobs, he doesn’t know where the train will be stopping or what the headcode is, and after this train he now has four more to drive to finish off the other driver’s diagram.

What better way is there of getting that information to him than by fax? Bearing in mind he isn’t allowed to have an electronic device switched on in the cab. The fax will be waiting for him to collect by the time he’s off the phone, and away he goes.

The sort of scene that is repeated daily all across the railway. This is such a non issue.

Via a printer...

 

[bengley]

Via a printer...

What do you think a fax machine is?
It's a printer which receives data via the telephone line.

 

[Horizon22]

What do you think a fax machine is?
It's a printer which receives data via the telephone line.

Right, but networked printers are a few decades more advanced!

Honestly this totally baffles me as to how people are still trying to defend faxes. This goes for both management and the union and the aforementioned "technology payments". I will defend many things, but this sort of thing should be consigned to the history books and makes the industry look like a total laughing stock.

 

[TUC]

And then just before departure they'll probably be given a thick wad of dot-matrix printed details about the flight.

Plenty of aircraft also have a thermal printer in the cockpit which can be used to print off messages and information.

A printer. So they are allowed electronic devices then?

 

[bengley]

Right, but networked printers are a few decades more advanced!

Honestly this totally baffles me as to how people are still trying to defend faxes. This goes for both management and the union and the aforementioned "technology payments". I will defend many things, but this sort of thing should be consigned to the history books and makes the industry look like a total laughing stock.

To the end user, a fax machine and a networked printer are exactly the same thing. They both require someone at one end to send a document to the printer at the receiving end.

When I was at TPE, fax was still used until probably early 2019 - then networked printers were brought in. The only real difference to the train crew receiving the document in the depot was an increase in print quality. It was still the same machine, just using internet protocol instead of telephone to receive the data.

Fax still being used is a non-issue. Unless people want train crew to start receiving their diagrams and reading them on a mobile device (this won't happen) while driving/working trains then I'm not sure what can be done to improve things?

 

[43066]

Via a printer...

Which is exactly how it’s done at Northern, as more than one of their traincrew have confirmed. It’s just called “faxing”…

It has been stated that true faxing isn’t used for traincrew related stuff. This whole thread is about a non issue.

This goes for both management and the union and the aforementioned "technology payments"

Technology payments are a longstanding practice in the industry and likely won’t be going anywhere, but generally wouldn’t be relevant to how diagrams are sent to depots, so why are they being discussed here?

 

[TUC]

Can someone please explain why it is undesirable for train drivers to have access to mobile devices in the cab? I can absolutely see why they mustn't be used whilst driving or for casual, non-work purposes, but in terms of both the purposes discussed above, and the added ability to receive other urgent messages, what is the problem as compared to paper?

 

[bengley]

Can someone please explain why it is undesirable for train drivers to have access to mobile devices in the cab? I can absolutely see why they mustn't be used whilst driving or for casual, non-work purposes, but in terms of both the purposes discussed above, and the added ability to receive other urgent messages, what is the problem as compared to paper?

For most drivers it probably wouldn't be a problem, but some become easily distracted and so you have to legislate for those people too.

Some companies do have quite clever DAS (Driver advisory system) which shows stops and timings (@357 ) can vouch for that. Most companies that I am aware of still use paper diagrams, which really isn't an issue - at the end of the day what information do you really need when driving other than station stops and times?

 

[TUC]

For most drivers it probably wouldn't be a problem, but some become easily distracted and so you have to legislate for those people too.

Some companies do have quite clever DAS (Driver advisory system) which shows stops and timings (@357 ) can vouch for that. Most companies that I am aware of still use paper diagrams, which really isn't an issue - at the end of the day what information do you really need when driving other than station stops and times?

Where there is disruption and a potential diversion, being able to see those details confirmed in writing, not just a phone message?

 

[Horizon22]

Technology payments are a longstanding practice in the industry and likely won’t be going anywhere, but generally wouldn’t be relevant to how diagrams are sent to depots, so why are they being discussed here?

It's been brought up several times in this thread. It may be long-standing, but I am allowed to find it a ridiculous notion. In any other industry its just called "change" and progress and no this is not some race to the bottom or something 'unique' to the industry. People can be suppoted with training but shouldn't be paid additional for just doing their job.

 

[Domeyhead]

That's the calibre of senior managers in the TOCs nowadays. Most of them come from the retail sector, banking or human resources and are clueless about how the railway actually operates. (There are of course a few honourable exceptions....but becoming fewer and fewer).

Possibly because it's the railway that is so anachronistic compared to those other industries. Remember it's the people who have come from other industries who bring the necessary vitality and innovation to old practices. THose who have been inside the rail industry for decades (and most of them have) are usually the ones resistant to change, citing the railway's "culture" and other intangibles. There seems to be this assumption that a Union official can instantly don one of many cloaks of expertise to discuss and evaluate a wide variety of issues that may spring fromt of points made by a whole variety of other skills - IT and networking being obvious examples. If the Union official's only concern is keeping the same processes in place to ease the burden of change falling on his/her members then all those other issues of obsolescence, cost, space, failure contingencies, maintenance, capacity, backup, and so on can simply be dismissed as "issues for management to sort out".

 

[bengley]

Where there is disruption and a potential diversion, being able to see those details confirmed in writing, not just a phone message?

When trains are diverted last minute due to disruption they very rarely stop en route, so a simple GSM-R call with the signaller confirming that a train is to be diverted isn't an issue and doesn't really require anything in writing. I was once asked not to stop at Luton because of some issue at the station by the signaller and this was easily passed on to me through a verbal communication without even having to stop - no delay caused. No need for anything in writing.

 

[43066]

For most drivers it probably wouldn't be a problem, but some become easily distracted and so you have to legislate for those people too.

Some companies do have quite clever DAS (Driver advisory system) which shows stops and timings (@357 ) can vouch for that. Most companies that I am aware of still use paper diagrams, which really isn't an issue - at the end of the day what information do you really need when driving other than station stops and times?

Paper is better for annotating, noting formation length, highlighting stops etc.

It's been brought up several times in this thread. It may be long-standing, but I am allowed to find it a ridiculous notion. In any other industry its just called "change" and progress and no this is not some race to the bottom or something 'unique' to the industry. People can be suppoted with training but shouldn't be paid additional for just doing their job.

It has been brought up because certain people are using this thread to criticise unions in general etc. but is irrelevant to the thread title.

 

[bengley]

It's been brought up several times in this thread. It may be long-standing, but I am allowed to find it a ridiculous notion. In any other industry its just called "change" and progress and no this is not some race to the bottom or something 'unique' to the industry. People can be suppoted with training but shouldn't be paid additional for just doing their job.

Technology payments aren't such a big deal that people on this forum make out. They almost always get agreed and are a few pounds on top of a percentage based pay rise.

Paper is better for annotating, noting formation length, highlighting lengths etc.

Indeed and I'm sure people would be quick to complain if the drivers' mobile device had a fault meaning he can't read his diagram, causing a delay or cancellation to the train, which would have been prevented by a piece of paper conveying the information instead