Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[Dai Corner]

Do go on ? what are these benefits ?

You'll have to read the thread.

 

[LAX54]

Via a mobile device in the cab.

A signaller sending a 'written message' via GSM-R would of course mean whilst the Signaller is carrying out that task, nothing else will be moving on his panel/workstation.
Much easier to send 'Contact Signaller' and the driver can do so, when he can.

I wouldn't bank on that replacement for GSM-R coming any time soon , in relative terms in the industry it is still 'new" .

Anyway , I think all those extolling the virtues of drivers having a tablet in the cab are missing another point . The GSM-R network is a private network owned/operated by the railway .And even that in places has areas without coverage .

An off the shelf tablet isn't going to be able to recieve notifications in a lot of places anyway because of lacking mobile network coverage .

I suppose if the industry wanted and agreement could be reached between relevant parties, it could deploy tablets that connect to the GSM-R network But then you are talking about huge costs for a bespoke solution , for what benefit ?

Nil benefit of course, mobile phones being used for safety critical tasks, can be a right pain, when staff get into a area that has zero signal.
I have know quite a few Line Blocks overrunning and trains delayed due to the mobile phone dropping connection, then you will finally get a call from an SPT or Crossing if there is one handy.

 

[43066]

How are information and instructions presented to drivers under ETCS?

Not on a mobile device! Crucially, when driving under ETCS, the driver also doesn’t need to be looking out for speed restrictions, signals etc. as they do under conventional signalling, so you’re comparing apples with oranges.

 

[Dai Corner]

A signaller sending a 'written message' via GSM-R would of course mean whilst the Signaller is carrying out that task, nothing else will be moving on his panel/workstation.
Much easier to send 'Contact Signaller' and the driver can do so, when he can.

Just as when the signaller is talking to a driver, which would probably take longer than typing the message out.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

That's what the discussion is about. Whether everyday technology like smartphones/tablet notifications, SMS and emails or voicemails would be a better way of getting messages to drivers than asking them to make a phone call either on the move or after making an unscheduled stop.

Which is something kind of under discussion on my place currently. At this point in time there is the rather standard 'no mobile devices' rule, though (some) drivers were issued tablets which they use for accessing rule books/email etc.

The newest trains have large, very bright touchscreens that are in their eyeline that they have complained as being extremely distracting during hours of darkness. They are far more distracting than current 'dark' screens due to the backlight and constant on nature.

Taking a call in a dark cab with a only a few lit up buttons has next to no impact on concentration levels. Having to use any backlit display will impair that, even a guard in the back cab can tell you have much a source of light can impact what you see out of the window.

Nobody is against changes, but the vast majority are against changes just for the sake of it. There have been derailments from unauthorised use of mobile devices which is why that rule seems to stick around

 

[Dai Corner]

Not on a mobile device! Crucially, when driving under ETCS, the driver also doesn’t need to be looking out for speed restrictions and signals as they do under conventional signalling, so you’re comparing apples with oranges.

On a screen, looking very much like that on a mobile device. The driver does, of course, need to look out for obstacles or trespassers etc.

Which is something kind of under discussion on my place currently. At this point in time there is the rather standard 'no mobile devices' rule, though (some) drivers were issued tablets which they use for accessing rule books/email etc.

The newest trains have large, very bright touchscreens that are in their eyeline that they have complained as being extremely distracting during hours of darkness. They are far more distracting than current 'dark' screens due to the backlight and constant on nature.

Taking a call in a dark cab with a only a few lit up buttons has next to no impact on concentration levels. Having to use any backlit display will impair that, even a guard in the back cab can tell you have much a source of light can impact what you see out of the window.

Nobody is against changes, but the vast majority are against changes just for the sake of it. There have been derailments from unauthorised use of mobile devices which is why that rule seems to stick around

So they need a 'dark mode'?

 

[muz379]

Because then somebody can complain that the railway has spend millions of pounds of taxpayer money on shiny new equipment that doesn't work 10% of the time, when they could have just put a printer at the signing on point and handed out some biro's.

Or you'll save 30 seconds during service disruption telling a driver that they will be getting sent via a different route . When the money could have been better spent maintaining the infastructure negating the need to send the train a different route anyway in a lot of cases .

You'll have to read the thread.

I have been , I have not seen anyone provide any suggested benefit that seems worth the added cost .

A signaller sending a 'written message' via GSM-R would of course mean whilst the Signaller is carrying out that task, nothing else will be moving on his panel/workstation.
Much easier to send 'Contact Signaller' and the driver can do so, when he can.


Nil benefit of course, mobile phones being used for safety critical tasks, can be a right pain, when staff get into a area that has zero signal.
I have know quite a few Line Blocks overrunning and trains delayed due to the mobile phone dropping connection, then you will finally get a call from an SPT or Crossing if there is one handy.

Ironically of course the GSM-R terminal that signallers use is touchscreen .

Of course this is another point , if signallers are going to be the ones sending out the type of information normally conveyed to traincrews via control , and awaiting acknowledgement as the method of "reaching a clear understanding" . Then expect lots of locations to be regraded because the volume of comms/work involved increases .

Just as when the signaller is talking to a driver, which would probably take longer than typing the message out.

You can pull off for other trains whilst on the phone , not so much whilst you are sat/stood at the gsmr terminal typing out a message .

 

[Dai Corner]

I have been , I have not seen anyone provide any suggested benefit that seems worth the added cost .

A tablet would cost around the same as a day or two's wages for a driver or a few delay minutes. Not a lot in the overall scheme of things. I gather some TOCs have already provided drivers with them anyway?

course this is another point , if signallers are going to be the ones sending out the type of information normally conveyed to traincrews via control , and awaiting acknowledgement as the method of "reaching a clear understanding" . Then expect lots of locations to be regraded because the volume of comms/work involved increases .

No reason why Control couldn't send messages.

You can pull off for other trains whilst on the phone , not so much whilst you are sat/stood at the gsmr terminal typing out a message .

Sounds like the layout of signal boxes might need a rethink?

 

[66701GBRF]

Sounds like the layout of signal boxes might need a rethink?

Why?

 

[muz379]

No reason why Control couldn't send messages.

Indeed , although if its about re routing a train or stopping aditionally etc the signaller is still going to need sight of that message and its acknowledgement before clearing signals for that alternative route for example .

A tablet would cost around the same as a day or two's wages for a driver or a few delay minutes. Not a lot in the overall scheme of things. I gather some TOCs have already provided drivers with them anyway?

An off the shelf tablet isn't really that expensive granted , although maintenance/replacement/loss/damage/spare tablets etc etc all comes at an ongoing cost as well . If you are going to that cost you will no doubt want to do stuff with it that requires negotiation.

And as previously mentioned , an off the shelf tablet with a 4g or 5g mobile sim for consumer mobile networks isn't going to be able to recieve these notifications in a lot of places anyway .

 

[12LDA28C]

Ok. A modern device could read out any message signallers or Control needed to send, the driver would get it without having to take his eyes off the road and it would stay on the screen until it was acknowledged and dismissed. Voice communication would still be available if needed to clarify the message, of course.

That's got to be better than picking up the phone when safe to do so, phoning the signaller, listening to the message, repeating it back, remembering it and writing it down when safe to do so?

So you’ve now replaced GSM-R (and re-written the RSSB Rule Book not to mention each individual TOCs’ Company Instructions), anything else you’d like to change unnecessarily and at great expense whilst you’re at it? I don’t know why you haven’t approached GBR offering your services as a consultant with all these great ideas.

Sounds like the layout of signal boxes might need a rethink?

You're now also proposing redesigning signalboxes? Where will it all end?

 

[66701GBRF]

You're now also proposing redesigning signalboxes? Where will it all end?

Perhaps we could issue signallers with straps so they can strap a GSMR terminal to their front like a marching band drummer?

 

[Bikeman78]

The newest trains have large, very bright touchscreens that are in their eyeline that they have complained as being extremely distracting during hours of darkness. They are far more distracting than current 'dark' screens due to the backlight and constant on nature.

That would drive me up the wall. I recently switched to a newer car which has a bright info screen. One of the first things I did was look up how to switch it off.

 

[Julia]

On the plus side of Fax machines, despite them being "arcane tech", they are nigh-on unhackable. The NHS still widely uses them, as does Japan.

This. The potential consequences of a slip-up on security are huge - lives were almost certainly lost as a result of the ransomware attack on the NHS in June, which shut down seven hospitals in London. Common or garden email, while commonplace for most of us, is simply not secure enough for national infrastructure operations (NHSMail has layers of extra protection against both malware coming in, and critical/personal data leaking out; operational email for rail staff should have the same) especially given that certain malign foreign states regard that infrastructure as legitimate targets.

 

[Snex]

Must say reading through the thread one thing that screams out is the need for some form of centralised system to do all this stuff rather than having each operator with their own solution.

The whole thing sounds like it badly needs to be electronic though with some form of screen in the cab which does most the stuff ie. line diagrams, messaging etc.

Obviously would need everyone to come together though as Northern having one system, TPE having another and LNER having a third would never work.

 

[dk1]

That's what the discussion is about. Whether everyday technology like smartphones/tablet notifications, SMS and emails or voicemails would be a better way of getting messages to drivers than asking them to make a phone call either on the move or after making an unscheduled stop.

They would make no difference and will never be allowed. Everything I need to know is relayed via the signaller whether it be via message/General broadcast or direct one to one. We are so risk averse now to any unnecessary distractions in the cab and it will only get worse. No point discussing it.

 

[Djgr]

Must say reading through the thread one thing that screams out is the need for some form of centralised system to do all this stuff rather than having each operator with their own solution.

The whole thing sounds like it badly needs to be electronic though with some form of screen in the cab which does most the stuff ie. line diagrams, messaging etc.

Obviously would need everyone to come together though as Northern having one system, TPE having another and LNER having a third would never work.

Good job that this is around the corner with Great British Railways and the culling of the TOCs.

 

[12LDA28C]

Good job that this is around the corner with Great British Railways and the culling of the TOCs.

Really? You've seen detailed proposals of exactly what will happen under GBR then, and the timescales involved?

 

[m0ffy]

This. The potential consequences of a slip-up on security are huge - lives were almost certainly lost as a result of the ransomware attack on the NHS in June, which shut down seven hospitals in London. Common or garden email, while commonplace for most of us, is simply not secure enough for national infrastructure operations (NHSMail has layers of extra protection against both malware coming in, and critical/personal data leaking out; operational email for rail staff should have the same) especially given that certain malign foreign states regard that infrastructure as legitimate targets.

Fax is actually trivial to intercept and spoof, and easier still to block.

 

[Blackpool boy]

This. The potential consequences of a slip-up on security are huge - lives were almost certainly lost as a result of the ransomware attack on the NHS in June, which shut down seven hospitals in London. Common or garden email, while commonplace for most of us, is simply not secure enough for national infrastructure operations (NHSMail has layers of extra protection against both malware coming in, and critical/personal data leaking out; operational email for rail staff should have the same) especially given that certain malign foreign states regard that infrastructure as legitimate targets.

Fax Machines Are Still Everywhere, and Wildly Insecure

Researchers have demonstrated that sending a single malicious fax is all it takes to break into a network.

www.wired.com

It's tempting to think of fax machines as a relic, every bit as relevant as an eight-track tape. But fields like health care and government still rely on faxes every day. Even your all-in-one printer probably has a fax component. And new research shows that vulnerabilities in that very old tech could expose entire corporate networks to attack.[\quote]

Can Faxes Be Intercepted or Hacked? Risks & Vulnerabilities

This post seek answers to critical questions like "Can faxes be hacked?" or "Can faxes be intercepted?"

www.ifaxapp.com

Can Faxes Be Hacked?​

Yes, faxes can be hacked. While analog fax machines are less susceptible to hacking than digital faxes, modern multi-function devices (MFDs) that include fax features can be hacked. Here’s how a hacker does this:

Exploiting firmware vulnerabilities​

Many firmware versions include legacy code that was developed when security was less of a priority. Additionally, hardware constraints such as limited processing power and memory can restrict the implementation of advanced security measures, making it easier for vulnerabilities to exist. Once hackers exploit these vulnerabilities, they can infiltrate the network and access sensitive data.[\quote]

 

[TUC]

What approaches do railways in other countries take to this issue?

 

[Llanigraham]

Via a mobile device in the cab.

Which as you have been told numerous times, they are only allowed to use when they are at a stand.
Why can you not understand that?

How are information and instructions presented to drivers under ETCS?

In exactly the same way as with other signalling system.

Just as when the signaller is talking to a driver, which would probably take longer than typing the message out.

Do you understand the context of "a clear understanding", especially in railway terms?

 

[35B]

Really? You've seen detailed proposals of exactly what will happen under GBR then, and the timescales involved?

I detected a degree of irony in the comment.

 

[Dai Corner]

So you’ve now replaced GSM-R (and re-written the RSSB Rule Book not to mention each individual TOCs’ Company Instructions), anything else you’d like to change unnecessarily and at great expense whilst you’re at it? I don’t know why you haven’t approached GBR offering your services as a consultant with all these great ideas.

You're now also proposing redesigning signalboxes? Where will it all end?

OK, the railway has reached perfection in everything it does and should be preserved in aspic for evermore. Even the smallest change would make things worse. I get it and I'm Out

 

[skyhigh]

OK, the railway has reached perfection in everything it does and should be preserved in aspic for evermore. Even the smallest change would make things worse. I get it and I'm Out

Nobody is saying that. But, suggesting things such as replacing GSM-R (which is used across Europe and less than 10 years old really isn't a priority.

Rather than spending countless millions on changing stuff such as GSM-R, I would prefer that money was spent on employing enough staff that overtime isn't required, or replacing outdated rolling stock.

Personally I would be overjoyed to see email replace 'fax', it would make my life easier. But it's not the biggest issue that needs sorting.

 

[Snex]

Nobody is saying that. But, suggesting things such as replacing GSM-R (which is used across Europe and less than 10 years old really isn't a priority.

Rather than spending countless millions on changing stuff such as GSM-R, I would prefer that money was spent on employing enough staff that overtime isn't required, or replacing outdated rolling stock.

Personally I would be overjoyed to see email replace 'fax', it would make my life easier. But it's not the biggest issue that needs sorting.

Personally, I'm not sure email is exactly modern either. Surely some centralised server where someone logins in and uploads all the data before a set time everyday and then someone else at the other end logins in and just prints it off is where it should be where it's at if it's something being developed now.

Least then if you wanted to create apps on mobiles, or whatever then the data side of it already setup rather than creating an email system which is a pretty outdated nowadays aswell really.

imo, you'd probably be better of just keeping the 'fax' system until then, it's just screams replacing something for the sake of it otherwise.

 

[skyhigh]

Personally, I'm not sure email is exactly modern either. Surely some centralised server where someone logins in and uploads all the data before a set time everyday and then someone else at the other end logins in and just prints it off is where it should be where it's at if it's something being developed now.

As far as I'm concerned, I only use fax to send a message. So anything else is a bit overkill.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I can’t speak for every depot but the one I work at (and others I visit) fax is very much a 1 way thing. Items we fax…

Holiday requests
Shift swaps
RDW availability
Repair book slips
Delay reply slips
Incident reports (a wide variety)

Replies are sent back via email and then placed in our pigeon holes, not ideal for the environment with multiple paper sheets but doesn’t affect train running

Anything related to train running comes directly from control to a coordinator or other person in charge, via email or phone call and the appropriate paperwork is supplied. If you’re away from your depot and a message or change is required mid journey control will usually contact the guard via their mobile, tell their driver and if the driver wishes they can, when safely stopped, clarify with control. Failing that, a contact signaller message will be sent through GSMR and the message passed that way

The talk of daily diagrams being sent by fax is untrue, every depot has a set of master copies that drivers/conductors self serve themselves with either by taking a photocopy (the preferred way as we can enlarge it too) or taking the master copy and return it at the end of your shift

The only time you may need an additional one is when you’re covering a job based from another depot, these are sourced centrally and held in a database that is easily accessed and printed off, along with the altered workings sheet, and is usually prepared well in advance of any departure.

I agree it’s an old fashioned method, wasteful on paper and could be improved but it works, doesn’t affect train running (in my opinion and experience) and the debate over devices and payments is far too above my pay grade to really have an input.
I’d happily have a company device and use it appropriately but it wouldn’t make any difference to running trains as it would be off while in the cab and 15 mins prior to departure.

 

[Djgr]

I can’t speak for every depot but the one I work at (and others I visit) fax is very much a 1 way thing. Items we fax…

Holiday requests

The organisations that I have worked for have used an online system for this for at least a decade.

The amount and cost of wasteful manual handling that must be involved with the above depot approach is pretty scary.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The organisations that I have worked for have used an online system for this for at least a decade.

The amount and cost of wasteful manual handling that must be involved with the above depot approach is pretty scary.

You say that but at Northern at least the fax, when sent by a driver or other member of staff, is converted to a PDF by the computer at the other end, and presented within an email.