Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[Darandio]

But in all fairness, why do faxes have to be used? Surely the unions will be speaking to members and other people by email.

Agreed practice. All of the vitriol about union agreement is pointless really, this one should have been agreed, compensated and put to bed long ago.

 

[Horizon22]

The premise of the thread is something of a nonsense, tbh.

My depot have a mandatory training course we need to do, so the company have offered a choice of being taken off track for a day to do it, or being paid for a day to do it at home.

Our Ts and Cs are decent, let’s not get it wrong, but others should aspire to similar, rather than criticising us…

To be honest I'm not talking about Northern's other issues (which are numerous) just this specific technology issue.

 

[43066]

To be honest I'm not talking about Northern's other issues (which are numerous) just this specific technology issue.

Still relevant though, I would argue. It’s a course that needs to be delivered (a bit like the GDPR one we had to sit through last year), and they don’t want to take us off track to do so, so are proposing a sensible work around.

I’d suggest that’s very relevant to Northen’s current issues.

 

[Horizon22]

Still relevant though, I would argue. It’s a course that needs to be delivered (a bit like the GDPR one we had to sit through last year), and they don’t want to take us off track to do so, so are proposing a sensible work around.

I’d suggest that’s very relevant to Northen’s current issues.

What course needs to be delivered to stop with fax usage?

 

[43066]

What course needs to be delivered to stop with fax usage?

They’re usually rolled into safety days that we need to continue driving after a certain point (or we have to be taken off track), but some are too long so have to be split out - GDPR and diverty and inclusiveness are two examples.

No comment on whether that’s right or wrong, zero interest either way, and it’s beyond my remit! It’s what we’ve been told.

 

[TUC]

By way of comparison, how much debate/delay was there in the introduction of fax machines in rail tasks such as this, back whenever that was?

 

[Snex]

They’re usually rolled into safety days that we need to continue driving after a certain point (or we have to be taken off track), but some are too long. GDPR and diverty and inclusiveness are two examples.

I'm not suggesting that these are, as I don't know, but the reasons usually for courses like GDPR, diversity and inclusiveness is for liability reasons. Don't do it and you have a major diversity incident, for example, the company can just buck the blame as you had a course so you knew what was right and what the standards expected are. Without it, it's a whole different ball game, especially if it's a cultural problem that's been ignored.

 

[Starmill]

I would personally agree with you here, as a relatively young person, but what if you don’t know how to use Apple (or the equivalent)? I’m fairly tech savvy, but haven’t used Android for 10+ years, so if work suddenly want me to use it, especially for safety critical type stuff like reading notices, I’d expect some form of training. I’d also expect said training to be on their dime. That’s no different to any of the non railway employers I have experience of.

What if the person concerned doesn’t know how to use any form of IT? Believe it or not there are drivers out there with non smartphones, and in some cases no mobile phones at all, who have been in the role for 30+ years. They also need to be retrained, and that isn’t easy…

I don't own a tablet and have never owned or used an iOS device for work or personally. If I were given an iPad I wouldn't want someone to train me to use it however! By all means for the latter category offer 10 minutes overtime. But that's maybe a handful of people at most per company and there is literally nothing you can't be taught in 10 minutes.

The telephone (i.e. not a smartphone) was viewed this way once.

 

[Horizon22]

They’re usually rolled into safety days that we need to continue driving after a certain point (or we have to be taken off track), but some are too long so have to be split out - GDPR and diverty and inclusiveness are two examples.

Again what does a GDPR and a diversity and inclusiveness course have to do with fax usage?

Those are standard mandatory learning at all TOCs - and generally most companies overall these days.

 

[35B]

What are you asking me here? The sheets need to be displayed and the diagram needs to be available to the driver in hard copy when booking on. It cannot be emailed elsewhere for fear it may be misprinted etc. Plus drivers cannot under any circumstances use a mobile device to display their diagram.

As someone who regularly travels through Sandy at speed, and has read the RAIB report on an overspeed there (not to mention other reports on overspeeds), I’m far from confident that the reliance on paper and ban on devices in the cab is safe.

 

[43066]

I don't own a tablet and have never owned or used an iOS device for work or personally. If I were given an iPad I wouldn't want someone to train me to use it however! By all means for the latter category offer 10 minutes overtime. But that's maybe a handful of people at most per company and there is literally nothing you can't be taught in 10 minutes.

Again, that’s based on your experience as someone who is fairly young, fairly tech savvy and who works as a consultant?

For context, my OH works for a large US consultancy firm in London, and leads on human capital change projects involving a fair bit of tech. (at least that’s my understanding, I glaze over when she talks about it). Suffice to say she can barely use her own mobile at times, so maybe we shouldn’t be surprised there are a few fossils on the railway .

The telephone (i.e. not a smartphone) was viewed this way once.

There are still people on the railway who insist on being contacted only by land line.

Again what does a GDPR and a diversity and inclusiveness course have to do with fax usage?

Those are standard mandatory learning at all TOCs - and generally most companies overall these days.

Moonshot has confirmed they aren’t just using faxes for communication - sorry I thought the convo had moved beyond that to technology more generally.

As someone who regularly travels through Sandy at speed, and has read the RAIB report on an overspeed there (not to mention other reports on overspeeds), I’m far from confident that the reliance on paper and ban on devices in the cab is safe.

As am I, in some respects.

But paper, and what you can see out of the window type resources, work better than nothing - route knowledge is what guards against Sandy type incidents.

Have sat navs on the road guarded against crashes? Equally relevantly, have PPL aviation sat navs guarded against airspace infringements? The answer is no….

 

[InOban]

As someone else has posted above, the key distinction is between genuine consultation - which should always take place in any well-run organisation - and negotiation. The members of ASLEF and the RMT operate the railway. They don't manage it, just as Easyjet planes are operated by flight crew but they don't decide how the business is run.

It is bizarre to read arguments that seem to say that the Railway is entirely unique and that nothing that happens in any other business can be relevant.

 

[MadMac]

They literally won’t work in the near future. In the electricity industry, fax has been deprecated (as one of many options) for the delivery of demand notices because it will not work after PSTN switch off.

PSTN?

 

[JamesT]

PSTN?

Public Switched Telephone Network. Usually refers to the old analogue system for phones. In the UK it’s currently scheduled to be turned off by 2027. Some countries like the Netherlands have already turned theirs off.

 

[MadMac]

Public Switched Telephone Network. Usually refers to the old analogue system for phones. In the UK it’s currently scheduled to be turned off by 2027. Some countries like the Netherlands have already turned theirs off.

Ah. Also known as POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service).

 

[m0ffy]

I’m really not buying the weird ageist arguments in this thread. Older people are just as capable at learning new technology (and in a great many industries it is a mandatory part of staying employed), especially where we’re talking about commonplace consumer tech.

 

[physics34]

This is what I mention to mates when they ask if my job as a driver has been replaced with automation yet. I tell them the industry is light years away from being automated lol

 

[TUC]

I’m really not buying the weird ageist arguments in this thread. Older people are just as capable at learning new technology (and in a great many industries it is a mandatory part of staying employed), especially where we’re talking about commonplace consumer tech.

Very much agree. The idea that older staff don't use technology in their day to day lives is itself a very old-fashioned argument.

 

[BayPaul]

This does make the industry look like a joke. Not just the use of antiquated technology, but the reaction to the thought of change, and the inability to see the obvious drawbacks with a paper based system.

Paper is out of date the moment it is printed, and instantly becomes an uncontrolled copy.
The admin load of having to print stuff out and feed it into a fax machine is high, and introduces the potential for errors
The training required to use a fax machine is higher than to use an Internet connected device. I wouldn't have a clue how to use one. Everyone on this site can by definition use a website.
Electronic rostering is so much mote flexible for staff and administrators.
Modt companies allow logging in to an element of the software on personal devices, for convenience and to reduce training loads. This need not compromise cab safety.
Sending maintenance requests by fax is frankly dangerous. A proper electronic system has closed loop communication, so you instantly know the defect has been received, and added to maintainance schedule with the appropriate priority, and cannot get confused by a dodgy printer.

As someone in a different but equally safety critical industry I am stunned!

 

[HerneHill]

A proper electronic system has closed loop communication, so you instantly know the defect has been received, and added to maintainance schedule with the appropriate priority, and cannot get confused by a dodgy printer.

Hear hear - my TOC moved to a full blown enterprise asset management system for servicing and maintenance for these exact reasons!

 

[DC1989]

It's even being reported in the guardian today. If unions have even lost the guardian then you know it's bad!

 

[zwk500]

Hear hear - my TOC moved to a full blown enterprise asset management system for servicing and maintenance for these exact reasons!

Didn't BR bring in TOPS largely for the same reasons as well?
Obviously it was still a lot of paper and printing because of the limitations of the time, but it was still an electronically connected system that held a central record that could ne interrogated from any suitable terminal.

 

[35B]

As someone who regularly travels through Sandy at speed, and has read the RAIB report on an overspeed there (not to mention other reports on overspeeds), I’m far from confident that the reliance on paper and ban on devices in the cab is safe.

As am I, in some respects.

But paper, and what you can see out of the window type resources, work better than nothing - route knowledge is what guards against Sandy type incidents.

Have sat navs on the road guarded against crashes? Equally relevantly, have PPL aviation sat navs guarded against airspace infringements? The answer is no….

The point concerning me about Sandy was not one of route knowledge, but of driver notification.

 

[pompeyfan]

There seems to be several arguments ongoing currently in this thread, one argument is solely focused on fax machines, and the other is the industry reliance on paper.

I know at least a few TOCs still heavily rely on paper, with various documents like diagrams and rosters and daily sheets being sent to remote printers.

 

[Horizon22]

There seems to be several arguments ongoing currently in this thread, one argument is solely focused on fax machines, and the other is the industry reliance on paper.

I know at least a few TOCs still heavily rely on paper, with various documents like diagrams and rosters and daily sheets being sent to remote printers.

Paper still has a part to play and a printed diagram for instance is useful so train crew can easily add notes to it, fold it etc. There may be an over-reliance on it, but it’s not going to disappear totally any time soon.

Fax machines should be in the history books by now though with alternatives that have been around for decades.

 

[chris11256]

As others have said, the fax machines will have to go when analogue phone line switch off happens anyway.

 

[scotraildriver]

So every driver has to be issued with a company tablet, and log in. That all have to be maintained by the IT department. How is this "better" than one simple fax machine? Because it is certainly going to be significantly more expensive!

That's what has been happening here at ScotRail for years. We all have a tablet and get sent rosters, WONs and PONs, email, rule book, sectional appendix etc etc. Hopefully soon we'll also get a rostering app to request leave etc. It works well and obviously all endorsed by the trade unions.

 

[Merle Haggard]

By way of comparison, how much debate/delay was there in the introduction of fax machines in rail tasks such as this, back whenever that was?

In the B.R. H.Q. office I worked in - none. But hardly more complicated to use than a photocopier.
It did seem a magic breakthrough, though - you could send almost instantaneously graphic information (maps, diagrams, draft agreements) that were difficult to explain over the phone without the possibility of ambiguity, and much quicker than posting. Authorisations and anything requiring a signature being so quick was particularly useful.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Didn't BR bring in TOPS largely for the same reasons as well?
Obviously it was still a lot of paper and printing because of the limitations of the time, but it was still an electronically connected system that held a central record that could ne interrogated from any suitable terminal.

As well as being invaluable for message sending (pre email invention) - a "ZZ" message was invaluable and quick - quicker than cutting a paper tape and sending it on a clunky telex system. (wretched tapes would often break , neccesitating having to "cut" another one)

 

[DC1989]

That's what has been happening here at ScotRail for years. We all have a tablet and get sent rosters, WONs and PONs, email, rule book, sectional appendix etc etc. Hopefully soon we'll also get a rostering app to request leave etc. It works well and obviously all endorsed by the trade unions.

So the daily mail (I know) said that Northern offered all staff free tablets but the union said no because they wanted 'technology payments'

The drivers were in favour of the tablets, the new system would’ve made their lives easier.

'But the union turned it down – they wanted not just one payment but an extra payment every year.