Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[LAX54]

I honestly didn't know fax was still a thing. I assumed the whole system had been switched off years ago.

My hazy memories of using it decades ago were that it was utter c**p. Jammed printers, unreadable faxes, engaged lines, faxes simply not appearing.

Then along came widespread adoption of email and that was the end of that.

My location at Parkeston Box used a fax right up to early 2024, if it aint broke, dont fix it, emails are no more 'reliable' than a fax, possibly less so !
Emails not unknown to just not arrive, due to a minor error, or deleted by someone without even realising !
Fax is a hard copy, it announces its arrival, and you have it in your hand ! (the onky reason it was changed was because we needed a new printer!) the fax line however does still work.

 

[HaxbyTraveller]

Well on the railway if management want to implement changes they need to be negotiated, not imposed. What happens in other industries is completely irrelevant. End of.

Yes ... and no. Every industry is different of course. But a management that isn't able to manage even something as simple as moving off antiquated technology to something more suited to the 21st C isn't worth the money they are paid. The whole rationale for moving to private industry instead of staid, slow nationalised, was that things could move faster, better in a privately run business - now that is also both true and not true. Private companies often do have a more top down 'do this NOW' approach, and that works well sometimes and not at others; they also have an undoubted ability to hide their stupidities, inefficiencies and catastrophic project failures more efficiently than publicly accountable operations. But they also have the ability to change without having to get buy-in from every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the business. Example: Private Firms WILL implement AI, it WILL introduce massive efficiencies, and they WILL lose jobs as a result; it WILL also result in massive debacles on occasions. But the railways will still be discussing use of AI in twenty years time as each small step results in someone saying that the 'wheeltappers' will lose their responsibilities and need to be compensated or something similar.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Going back to the late 1970’s, a ZZ message was quicker than having to go downstairs to the telephone exchange and for one of the girls to type out a message on the teleprinter to whoever I wanted it to go to, which was the previous system I had to use!

I would have thought some quick training on how to use a company IPad is probably required here. If someone is trying to squeeze the TOC for extra money for using a free issue IPad, that is a bit of a reach.

As analogue coverage is now ending fast, as others have said, a change away from FAX is going to have to be made and soon. I am amazed that is still being deployed in parts of the rail industry.

Does anyone in the industry out there still use pagers?

 

[GLC]

Perhaps, Northern and the unions could reach a an amicable compromise. Northern could supply their staff with tablets on which they could read the faxes (presumably delivered by email), but to minimise training time, each tablet should be supplied with a mouse and keyboard, so as to mimic the desktop PC setup the staff member is already familiar with, thus introducing new technology, but without the required training process.

 

[zwk500]

Emails not unknown to just not arrive, due to a minor error, or deleted by someone without even realising !

While this is perfectly true - memories of trying to organise for Tornado to water at Stafford on one tour where the Local staff had been upgraded to a newer version of windows before us in the office and so their emails saying 'yes all fine' just never arrived - this is also perfectly possible to manage either via process or design with read receipts and requirements to acknowledge. If you were using a dedicated roster management system the requirement to acknowledge (a digital 'sign for') would be very easy to implement.

It's not like a fax couldn't just be ripped off the printer and then immediately forgotten about by somebody trying to deal with 7 things at once.

 

[12LDA28C]

Shown? Shown what? "press the power button to switch the tablet on" and "press the outlook icon to open the email app"? Even if it's the first time, ever, you've used that tablet model and operating system that's all there is to it. There is nothing to be shown.

This is simply not correct, or do you expect an employer to spend a large sum of money issuing staff with tablets just so they can access their emails?

There will be company-specific Apps for filling in a report, potentially another for applying for leave, another for accessing and signing for notices, another for downloading the Rule Book and signing electronically for updates, and more for accessing other online forms, route videos, route maps and so on. Some of these may not be particularly intuitive and even if they are, staff will need to be shown how to access all these features.

I don't own a tablet and have never owned or used an iOS device for work or personally. If I were given an iPad I wouldn't want someone to train me to use it however! By all means for the latter category offer 10 minutes overtime. But that's maybe a handful of people at most per company and there is literally nothing you can't be taught in 10 minutes.

The telephone (i.e. not a smartphone) was viewed this way once.

That's a strange assertion to make if, by your own admission, you 'don't own a tablet and have ever owned or used an iOS device'.

 

[Starmill]

This is simply not correct, or do you expect an employer to spend a large sum of money issuing staff with tablets just so they can access their emails?

There will be company-specific Apps for filling in a report, potentially another for applying for leave, another for accessing and signing for notices, another for downloading the Rule Book and signing electronically for updates, and more for accessing other online forms, route videos, route maps and so on. Some of these may not be particularly intuitive and even if they are, staff will need to be shown how to access all these features.

Er, are you suggesting someone's currently using the fax machine to do all that?

We're talking about the devices, you're talking about business processes. Fax machines are "dumb" and replaceable by equally "dumb" email apps. If someone were using a fax machine to do all that they could do it by email.

That's a strange assertion to make if, by your own admission, you 'don't own a tablet and have ever owned or used an iOS device'.

Not it isn't. It's literally their main selling point.

 

[12LDA28C]

Er, are you suggesting someone's currently using the fax machine to do all that?

We're talking about the devices, you're talking about business processes. Fax machines are "dumb" and replaceable by equally "dumb" email apps. If someone were using a fax machine to do all that they could do it by email.

Not it isn't. It's literally their main selling point.

I'm suggesting, clearly, that a TOC is not going to replace a system of fax machine communication by issuing all staff with tablets just so they can access their emails. You claimed that staff should be issued with tablets (which I don't disagree with) and the majority of staff will need ten minutes' training as 'there is literally nothing you can't be taught in 10 minutes' which is simply nonsense. I can guarantee it would take you rather longer than that to grasp the intricacies of a railway-issued tablet if you were given one.

 

[Starmill]

I'm suggesting, clearly, that a TOC is not going to replace a system of fax machine communication by issuing all staff with tablets just so they can access their emails. You claimed that staff should be issued with tablets (which I don't disagree with) and the majority of staff will need ten minutes' training as 'there is literally nothing you can't be taught in 10 minutes' which is simply nonsense. I can guarantee it would take you rather longer than that to grasp the intricacies of a railway-issued tablet if you were given one.

A fax machine can't do any of those apps, clearly. So I don't see what they'd have to do with anything.

 

[12LDA28C]

A fax machine can't do any of those apps, clearly. So I don't see what they'd have to do with anything.

Indeed. So you're in agreement then, that staff won't be issued a tablet just to read their emails. Thought so.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Going back to the late 1970’s, a ZZ message was quicker than having to go downstairs to the telephone exchange and for one of the girls to type out a message on the teleprinter to whoever I wanted it to go to.

At Warrington Arpley TOPS Office in the 1970s we were at the cutting-edge of technology. We'd get faxes listing the next trip from Dallam and Warrington Central, send ZZ-messages (an early form of e-mail) to other area freight centres and of course phone people up as required. Despite the occasional glitch it all worked very efficiently.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. So you're in agreement then, that staff won't be issued a tablet just to read their emails. Thought so.

If that's what's needed then yes of course they would do. Given that in less than three years the fax machine is at risk of stopping working entirely there may be no choice.

Obviously I don't encourage that. But if that's what's got to be done to start turning the mess around then of course.

 

[HerneHill]

union said no because they wanted 'technology payments'

Honestly, the whole concept of ‘technology payments’ just needs to go - unions should be engaging with new technology in a participative review manner to ensure railway colleagues can continue to do their job more safely and effectively, rather than constantly trying to hold operational improvements to ransom.

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed. So you're in agreement then, that staff won't be issued a tablet just to read their emails. Thought so.

Way back in Serco/Abellio days drivers told me they were issued with Blackbetrry’s so why such a long transition period?

 

[TUC]

Perhaps, Northern and the unions could reach a an amicable compromise. Northern could supply their staff with tablets on which they could read the faxes (presumably delivered by email), but to minimise training time, each tablet should be supplied with a mouse and keyboard, so as to mimic the desktop PC setup the staff member is already familiar with, thus introducing new technology, but without the required training process.

You make it sound like staff sit at home using 20 year old desktop computers and have never seen a tablet.

 

[matchmaker]

I don't have an issue with them using fax machines. If the system works, then why change it? Nothing wrong with fax machines as a form of communication. To be honest, with the ever increasing electronic surveillance and eavesdropping, I genuinely believe that old style analogue communication methods like fax machines will have a comeback in the next few years. Much like pagers in the Middle East.

The shipping industry still used telex until at least the late 1990s for reasons of security.

 

[TUC]

The shipping industry still used telex until at least the late 1990s for reasons of security.

The late 1990s was a long time ago.

 

[DJP78]

Having read the transcript, looks like a very nuanced game of words on the part of Northern management.

So, the use of fax is due to an agreement with the union, presumably put in place in the 90’s?

The Northern manager then goes on to say that any transitioning over to electronic / tech requires union agreement. Again, probably technically correct??

However, that doesn’t mean to say that ASLEF are indicative of the continued use of the fax machine due to blocking progress.

Is it not the case that the Northern management team have simply allowed this status quo to rumble on due to ambivalence and inertia on their part?? And now they are being rightly publicly rebuked by A.Burnham and need a scapegoat for their legacy management issues??

Northern management run the TOC. If they want to introduce new tech, they simply need to sit down with all relevant stakeholders and thrash out their proposals. Like all the other UK and English TOCs have. Hiding behind union blaming falsehoods is pathetic and dishonest. Just look at the inaccurate conjecture sparked on this thread.

I can only speak for my TOC, but for the avoidance of doubt and further damaged public opinion of the railways, we have been using electronic tablets and email for some considerable time for accessing rosters, daily diagrams (job cards for those outside railway speak), holiday cards, company emails, announcements, rule book access, training, testing etc etc. All with the full support and endorsement of ASLEF.

I personally still print my daily diagram. I can then put little notes on it as the day progresses, say if plans change or little incidents crop up. Serves as a good memory jog if I’m questioned by control as to why something happened.

 

[zwk500]

We're talking about the devices, you're talking about business processes.

Training would be for the specific systems/software packages to be used, rather than how to operate the devices themselves - and is quite normal across a range of companies. An e-learning video showing people the steps of submitting a leave request, or how to process a shift swap, how to acknowledge a notice etc, would be quite normal training for any company when introducing a new system as they all do things slightly differently and have their own quirks.

 

[Efini92]

Back in B.R. days some changes that, under Union agreements, were 'negotiation' and others that were 'consultation'. That was a very important distinction, but I have no idea if it still applies

It does for northern. Back in 2020/2021 a new deal for the drivers was drafted and negotiated had been replaced with consulted on numerous items. It would seem that the company council hadn’t spotted this glaring error. Fortunately a lot of drivers did and that’s why it didn’t pass the vote.

 

[pompeyfan]

Honestly, the whole concept of ‘technology payments’ just needs to go - unions should be engaging with new technology in a participative review manner to ensure railway colleagues can continue to do their job more safely and effectively, rather than constantly trying to hold operational improvements to ransom.

When I get a chance I’ll create a new thread, but I can see both sides of the coin for tech payments. Some technology does actually significantly increase work load, and should be negotiated. Conductors and guards with E-ticket clips is another debate.

 

[Horizon22]

The shipping industry still used telex until at least the late 1990s for reasons of security.

So almost 30 years ago then. That's a long time in a working environment.

 

[6Gman]

At the meeting a question was put by a former trades union officer with 25 years experience of working with a variety of companies. He could not think of a single occasion when negotiations would have got down to the details of using or not using fax machines.

One has to wonder whether Northern has seriously tried to introduce a better system.

Far more serious is that successive management teams with Northern and its antecedents have committed themselves to Sunday and evening timetables in full knowledge that they could not be delivered if their staff didn't want to work voluntary overtime.

In a previous life as an elected union representative I recall arguing against strike action. I pointed out that working to rule and banning all non contractual overtime would be a far more effective sanction and cost most workers very little. In well run parts of the business it would have minimal effect on customers. And so it was. In a small number of critical areas the wheels effectively came off! Those badly managed sections won, or lost, the dispute for themselves and everyone else.

So back to today. The current Northern management is being hung out to dry because their predecessors have muddled through. Only natural to take the line of least resistance.

As recently as 6 months ago, despite long running salary disputes, a less unreliable service was being run, strike days excepted.

Fax machines are an amusing irrelevance in the wider picture. All sides need to urgently resolve this before the otherwise improving leisure market is severely impacted in the longer term.

This.

I suspect Northern find this a useful "dead cat" to distract from the real issues affecting performance.

 

[deepthought]

Any decent Northern official would have said to Burnham the process works fine and to alter it would involve cost that can be better utilised elsewhere. That is the way I would have replied to him.

 

[Starmill]

Training would be for the specific systems/software packages to be used, rather than how to operate the devices themselves - and is quite normal across a range of companies. An e-learning video showing people the steps of submitting a leave request, or how to process a shift swap, how to acknowledge a notice etc, would be quite normal training for any company when introducing a new system as they all do things slightly differently and have their own quirks.

Indeed! Of course lots of that stuff is already not done on fax. And therefore already is appropriately trained for.

If it isn't, and that is done on fax, then clearly just keeping the fax machines isn't really an option too much longer either.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed! Of course lots of that stuff is already not done on fax. And therefore already is appropriately trained for.

If it isn't, and that is done on fax, then clearly just keeping the fax machines isn't really an option too much longer either.

Yes but my point was that the reaction of 'pfft, what do you need training for' is overlooking the fact that there *would* need to be training, and for train drivers that does mean scheduling in time to do it. It's obviously something that's easy enough to work into an existing training/refresher day, but it's not the case that you can simply take the fax machine away one day and leave everybody to muddle through the new roster system.

However this is something that really should have happened years ago anyway.

 

[TUC]

Any decent Northern official would have said to Burnham the process works fine and to alter it would involve cost that can be better utilised elsewhere. That is the way I would have replied to him.

And if I was Andy Burnham I would have said in response that, given it is the same type of change that 99% of other businesses have been through in the past 20 years, why should it uniquely be for rail that the existing world works fine and that there would not be benefits?

 

[Crossover]

I can't help but take from the transcript that AB is just giving soundbites. I don't disagree that consideration needs to be given to the use of fax, but I can't help but feeling the way it is being sounded out is counterproductive (like a manager who simply doesn't understand what their staff actually do)

In the IT space, printers are known as the devil, they are the most unreliable piece of tech you can imagine. So much that most companies rent their printers on support contracts to not have to deal with it. Depending on the exact setup, it can be either very easy for the admin or pure hell.

In theory absolutely.

I would somewhat agree with you on that, given I have had a torrid time with printers this week - I have just put two more on contract as my department just doesn't have the time to keep fixing issues which crop up (one of which was going to need dismantling half of the printer to replace the component which was believed to have gone faulty - it is only about 5 years old but didn't self diagnose, just started doing a shocking job of printing stuff!)

Er, are you suggesting someone's currently using the fax machine to do all that?

We're talking about the devices, you're talking about business processes. Fax machines are "dumb" and replaceable by equally "dumb" email apps. If someone were using a fax machine to do all that they could do it by email.

Not it isn't. It's literally their main selling point.

Given I work with people who can barely remember their password to log on to a desktop terminal, I don't believe it would only take 10 minutes (to refer to another post, I have just picked up the last) to train some of them on using a tablet. For the likes of me and you, we probably would, but not everyone (and not necessarily all of an older generation either)

 

[InkyScrolls]

Given I work with people who can barely remember their password to log on to a desktop terminal, I don't believe it would only take 10 minutes (to refer to another post, I have just picked up the last) to train some of them on using a tablet. For the likes of me and you, we probably would, but not everyone (and not necessarily all of an older generation either).

I have never used anything more modern than a PC with Windows 7, despite being born in the 90s. That's a product of my childhood, and never having needed a more modern device. I'm probably one of those who would take quite a bit more than then minutes to train, and I'm definitely not 'of an older generation'! I appreciate I'm likely an outlier however.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Conductors and guards with E-ticket clips is another debate.

That's more to do with the huge loss in commission and wanting it to be replaced by a person scan arrangement.