Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[Mcr Warrior]

It's made the front page of today's print edition of the "Manchester Evening News". Unsurprising as the story almost writes itself!

(Pic of front cover of the "Manchester Evening News" (Thursday 31st October 2024) with the main headline "Fax and Friction" - Mayor slams Northern bosses...)

 

[matchmaker]

So almost 30 years ago then. That's a long time in a working environment.

What I should have said was that when faxing was extensively used in business, the shipping industry stuck to telex when it was being phased out elsewhere.

 

[Djgr]

It's made the front page of today's print edition of the "Manchester Evening News". Unsurprising as the story almost writes itself!
View attachment 168273
(Pic of front cover of the "Manchester Evening News" (Thursday 31st October 2024) with the main headline "Fax and Friction" - Mayor slams Northern bosses...)

On leading page in the Times also.

It is clear from reading some of the comments here that those in the railway industry seriously do not understand how astounded real world people are.

It really is an appalling advert for the industry as it is today.

 

[thejuggler]

I have worked in too many organisations where new tech/software is introduced and training is little more than 'just play with it'. Thankfully I've never had a safety critical role.

 

[david l]

If you've got an hour to spare (and admittedly the sound isn't great), listen to & watch the whole meeting on the TfN archive.
Tells you a lot about what a state Northern is in, and the standard (or not) of the management that fronted this. Wouldn't pay them in washers.

 

[Trainbike46]

If fax machines are working, why bother about it? The airline industry still uses dot-matrix printers to print loading sheets in triplicate because it still works.

The railway has plenty of tech still in use that's older than fax machines!

Agreed, if it works, why change it?

My post generated the range of responses I expected!

What happens in other industries is not completely irrelevant, particularly when you are a (rightly) subsidised service industry.
It's not a good look, and that, like it or not, is important

Well, there are examples of various private companies, including Aldi, still using fax as well.

There may be better ways, and clearly it needs to change before fax stops working, but tbh I don't see why people think it is an issue that faxes are still used.

I kind of assumed they got the roster by email and picked up a paper copy of the roster as they came into their starting depot, but never really thought about it.

On leading page in the Times also.

It is clear from reading some of the comments here that those in the railway industry seriously do not understand how astounded real world people are.

It really is an appalling advert for the industry as it is today.

Is it? as someone who has never used a fax machine in their life, I don't see why it matters as long as staff know what they're supposed to do in time. Northern has bigger problems in my view, including whatever is causing all those cancellations recently...

 

[Gostav]

I'm curious about when UK railways stopped using traditional telegraphs to transmit business information.

 

[12LDA28C]

On leading page in the Times also.

It is clear from reading some of the comments here that those in the railway industry seriously do not understand how astounded real world people are.

It really is an appalling advert for the industry as it is today.

Why would anyone who works in rail care how astounded 'real world' people are?

I'm sure there are plenty of outdated or archaic working practices in existence in say, the NHS, or the Police Force, or in many other industries. If those practices work for them, what business is it of anyone else's to comment or feel entitled to pass judgement? I couldn't care less what happens in any industry that I don't work in, so why do you?

 

[DC1989]

Reading back the comments made to Andy Burnham, the funniest thing has to be Northern calling email 'Emerging technological revolution'

 

[12C]

Why would anyone who works in rail care how astounded 'real world' people are?

I'm sure there are plenty of outdated or archaic working practices in existence in say, the NHS, or the Police Force, or in many other industries. If those practices work for them, what business is it of anyone else's to comment or feel entitled to pass judgement? I couldn't care less what happens in any industry that I don't work in, so why do you?

Indeed, I believe the Police used cassette tapes for interview recordings until very recently (or maybe even still do). I also understand some aircraft are still updated via floppy disk.

I might be old fashioned but I found it much easier to use the fax at work (when we had one) if I had to send a paper document quickly. To fax another office, all you had to do was insert the document, press and hold a speed dial button and away it went. I now have to log into a computer, scan the document, find the scanned file then attach it to an email before sending it. Much more of a faff.

 

[Parham Wood]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

Why is a productivity deal required to phase out fax machines?

 

[BayPaul]

What I should have said was that when faxing was extensively used in business, the shipping industry stuck to telex when it was being phased out elsewhere.

Only because of bandwidth... Inmarsat C is a telex based system that was very much cheaper than the alternative satellite based systems at the time.

 

[TUC]

How would the world ever process with the attitude of some here of 'if it works, why change it'?

 

[Confused52]

There seems to be an assumption on this thread that closure of the existing Public Switch Telephone Network, and its replacement by IP based Telephony, will stop the use of Group 3 fax machines. The design requirements for the IP replacement network explicitly allow for the continuation of fax machines on the new network if the correct Customer Premises equipment is used. BT, for example claim it should work on their Digital voice service. In the railway case surely there is also the Extension Trunk Dialling system available which is not actually the Public Switched Telephone Network.

 

[AndrewE]

Hasn't the NHS (also) been mocked recently for relying heavily on FAX machines?

I'm disappointed at the MEN hyping this, it's reminiscent of the Murdoch Press in the Thatcher years pillorying the BR Pension Scheme for owning Old Masters, antique furniture and farmland.
In fact a friend in the pensions industry told me back in the late '70s that the BR pension scheme was seen as exemplary - and I remember that a medieval trunk that they sold in the aftermath of the publicity still made a very handsome profit. Soon after that the Tories changed the law to force pension funds out of such investments so that they were tied into the crooks in the City... Go figure, as they say.

 

[Ediswan]

Only because of bandwidth... Inmarsat C is a telex based system that was very much cheaper than the alternative satellite based systems at the time.

Telex documents also had international legal standing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If it works what exactly is the problem? I'm the same people writing these headlines would be writing songs just as scathing had a move to new tech gone wrong or similar.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Hasn't the NHS (also) been mocked recently for relying heavily on FAX machines?

I'm disappointed at the MEN hyping this, it's reminiscent of the Murdoch Press in the Thatcher years pillorying the BR Pension Scheme for owning Old Masters, antique furniture and farmland.
In fact a friend in the pensions industry told me back in the late '70s that the BR pension scheme was seen as exemplary - and I remember that a medieval trunk that they sold in the aftermath of the publicity still made a very handsome profit. Soon after that the Tories changed the law to force pension funds out of such investments so that they were tied into the crooks in the City... Go figure, as they say.

The Evening Standard also criticised the B.R. Pension Fund for this in an editorial at that time.
Much later, in the finance pages they ran another, but this time congratulatory, article about how far-sighted the investors for B.R.P.S. were in making such shrewd investments in Old Masters - but curiously forgot to mention their earlier stance.
But it was quite often the case that, in one edition, the front page headlines would take a view at 180 degrees to that expressed towards the back, in the finance section...

 

[Djgr]

Hasn't the NHS (also) been mocked recently for relying heavily on FAX machines?

I'm disappointed at the MEN hyping this, it's reminiscent of the Murdoch Press in the Thatcher years pillorying the BR Pension Scheme for owning Old Masters, antique furniture and farmland.
In fact a friend in the pensions industry told me back in the late '70s that the BR pension scheme was seen as exemplary - and I remember that a medieval trunk that they sold in the aftermath of the publicity still made a very handsome profit. Soon after that the Tories changed the law to force pension funds out of such investments so that they were tied into the crooks in the City... Go figure, as they say.

So are you saying Northern are keeping fax machines as an investment?

 

[A0wen]

Well on the railway if management want to implement changes they need to be negotiated, not imposed. What happens in other industries is completely irrelevant. End of.

Except if the technology being used is obsolete, it shouldn't necessitate a "negotiation" to move to new tech. Frankly it's where the rail industry should fall into line with the private sector and if you don't want to use the new tech then you need to find another job.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I recall vaguely (maybe incorrectly) BR had its own internal telephone network and exchanges as part of the signalling system, something akin to Mercury or Kingston Communications. Indeed a number of class 20s carried BRT livery around the time of privatisation.

How much of this still exists and has this any bearing on the continued use of fax machines?
How much use is made of the public networks?

At my previous place of work (not railway related) we retained a single fax machine because we still received them, albeit few in number, until about 2019.

 

[jfowkes]

If it works what exactly is the problem? I'm the same people writing these headlines would be writing songs just as scathing had a move to new tech gone wrong or similar.

In principle there's no problem. In practice, maintaining a fax based system might take more time and money compared to a more modern alternative. Not saying that is the case, but often legacy systems can cost a lot to maintain.
In the case of fax, I wouldn't be surprised if replacement machines, toner and other consumables are quite expensive as they won't be manufactured in quantities that benefit from economies of scale.

And if I were an IT manager, I'd be worried about the security implications of having a fundamentally insecure system sending important data around.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why would anyone who works in rail care how astounded 'real world' people are?

I care. Very much. And I know I’m not alone in that.

Because things like this portray the industry in a bad light, and it does none of us a favour. And believe it or not, it distracts people from doing the job - at all levels. Including Ministerial.

 

[jfowkes]

I'm sure there are plenty of outdated or archaic working practices in existence in say, the NHS, or the Police Force, or in many other industries. If those practices work for them, what business is it of anyone else's to comment or feel entitled to pass judgement? I couldn't care less what happens in any industry that I don't work in, so why do you?

If it affects the efficiency which which my taxes are spent, or the price of my train tickets, or the quality/reliability of the service I get, I very much care!

Let's take the example of the NHS. Let's imagine a paper based system that takes 12 hours to get data from point A to point B. In the past the system has worked and was pretty much as efficient as it could be. Now though, due to technological advances, there's a system that can do the same job in only 2 hours. Technically the paper-based system still works. Nothing has changed, the staff are familiar with it. But it would be crazy to accept what is now an effective 10-hour delay in data processing because that could mean the difference between life and death for someone. (This is just an example, I'm not claiming the railway systems under discussion are life critical)

There are many, many reasons across many, many domains (logistical, economic, political, ethical, security) for why you might want to improve or replace a "working" system.

 

[Elecman]

I recall vaguely (maybe incorrectly) BR had its own internal telephone network and exchanges as part of the signalling system, something akin to Mercury or Kingston Communications. Indeed a number of class 20s carried BRT livery around the time of privatisation.

How much of this still exists and has this any bearing on the continued use of fax machines?
How much use is made of the public networks?

At my previous place of work (not railway related) we retained a single fax machine because we still received them, albeit few in number, until about 2019.

It still exists although was sold at Privatisation

 

[dosxuk]

I care. Very much. And I know I’m not alone in that.

Because things like this portray the industry in a bad light, and it does none of us a favour. And believ it or not, it distracts people from doign the job - at all levels. Including Ministerial.

I guess this thinking is why the airline industry goes to great lengths to hide how archaic their underlying systems are.

 

[BayPaul]

I care. Very much. And I know I’m not alone in that.

Because things like this portray the industry in a bad light, and it does none of us a favour. And believ it or not, it distracts people from doign the job - at all levels. Including Ministerial.

I agree totally.

Staff should always care what their customers think of their business. They are the reason for it's existence.

For me the fax machines are a symptom - of inadequate management and belligerent staff attitudes, and of being stuck in the past and unable to embrace new technologies. It may be a false impression, but that's how it appears from the outside.

Also, imagine a keen new member of staff, wanting to join a modern business, only to have to be trained on how to use the fax machine. It isn't going to make a great impression. Presumably staff need to come in to work to read the schedule , and could have better managed their time if they had received it electronically at home. I'd find that hugely frustrating.

And paper based systems are expensive and prone to errors. The kit might be cheap, but the administration time to manage it isn't. And without a positive report that the message has been updated, it could easily lead to outdated info being passed on.

 

[A0wen]

I guess this thinking is why the airline industry goes to great lengths to hide how archaic their underlying systems are.

The airlines are a bit different.

Firstly in the UK at leastvthey are private companies, not hoovering up tax payer subsidies of millions of pounds every day.

Secondly, not all airlines use the same systems. The newer entrants such as Easyjet which started business in 1995 won't have legacy systems dating back to the 1960s unlike the "flag carriers" such as BA, American, Lufthansa, Qantas or KLM (yes, I'm aware most of those aren't British, but the airline industry is global and flag carriers tend to be long established.)

 

[fishwomp]

Agreed practice. All of the vitriol about union agreement is pointless really, this one should have been agreed, compensated and put to bed long ago.

Compensated? No. It needed to be done. It could be paid for by removing the payment for fax machine skills, so net zero.

 

[TUC]

Compensated? No. It needed to be done. It could be paid for by removing the payment for fax machine skills, so net zero.

In terms of good use of public money, zero compensation. That's fair. It's the same as everyone else in society.