Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[m0ffy]

1) chances are, they already use multi-function devices
2) As above
3) what it they are used for other critical systems such as fire/security alarms? And are contracts to such
4) doesn't work for users that don't have company tech.
5) diagrams and rosters still need to be posted up for all to see/use on the day, especially STP diagrams or special turns
6) what formal process would you use? Would all unions agree to that proposal?

Phone lines for alarms are dying off even faster than PSTN. Redcare (BT’s alarm network) went to stop-sell a while ago and the system is now actively being shutdown. The PSTN lines themselves will be gone soon also.

 

[bleeder4]

The PSTN phone network is being switched off in the coming years which will make them unusable.

Not necessarily. Most modern fax machines can work over VoIP, but it does require some additional setup.

 

[Dai Corner]

1) chances are, they already use multi-function devices
2) As above

Ok.

3) what it they are used for other critical systems such as fire/security alarms? And are contracts to such

Those systems will need to be replaced when POTS is switched off anyway.

4) doesn't work for users that don't have company tech.

See 5. If they don't have / want to use suitable devices of their own they can be issued with them or request paper copies instead.

6) diagrams and rosters still need to be posted up for all to see/use on the day, especially STP diagrams or special turns

Why? When they can read their emails or their paper copies. They can even read the STPs, special turns and other late notices which come in after they've left the depot to start work.

6) what formal process would you use? Would all unions agree to that proposal?

Ask the individuals what difficulties they're having and see how these could be addressed. Tolerate the die-hards who insist on paper until they're all retired or otherwise left.

I used a similar process to wean people off paper and onto email in the financial services industry in the 1990s and in schools in the 2000s. It worked very well.

There are plenty of railway staff who cheerfully post in forums like this rather than correspond through the letters columns of magazines or newspapers so I'm finding it difficult to understand the objection to electronic communication at work I'm afraid.

 

[muz379]

Sorry, but we know that the union holds out for technology payments - things the private sector just cannot believe exist. Tablets was discussed a few months ago for example.

So, if a TOC says it's the union, then we're going to believe it's the union. Are you seriously telling me that setting up a depot email alias and mailing the (content of the) fax to that instead of faxing is something that takes a business more than a day to migrate to?

Net benefit: - no maintenance contracts for faxes, no fax oil, no fax paper, no person getting off their butt to look at the fax, etc etc.

For those that can't understand why an electronic message like an email is more efficient than a fax, please tell me how they are reading railforums and their email, and would they prefer it to arrive by fax (or post, or smoke signals), and when they last received a fax for personal business. Then they can tell me why it's reasonable to be paid for knowing how to handle an email (and for forgetting how to use a fax).

Ultimately, I know you're saying we're blindly trusting the TOC managers, but we're not. They get fired. That's what re-nationalization is about. We, the people, via the government, get to fire leaders of 'badly run' government sponsored organizations. We don't ask the union to do that for us, we vote for governments to do that.

Deveral of you are blindly trusting TOC managers and it shows .

Anyway the more appropriate and immediate replacement for the fax machines in these remote locations is a networked printer , because the information being conveyed via fax in most cases still needs to br printed . That could be done already without any need to negotiate and indeed in some cases the "fax machine" is multifunction device already capable of and even sometimes being used as a networked printer as well .

Longer term if the need for certain information to be printed is going to be replaced with a tablet or some other such device this will need to be negotiated especially because as earlier discussed they aren't just going to move to tablets to stop printing a daily diagram , and changes to current safety standards prohibiting these devices being used in a driving cab considered by the company and consulted in . Those sorts of things cannot happen overnight .

Yes, that's how it currently happens. But wouldn't it be nicer if your car was in the place where you finish your day... If you could spend more time driving a train and less time in the back of a taxi... If you had time to complete a full roster rather than needing 2 people to cover it... If your TOC didn't need the expense of paying for taxis...
There are massive benefits to employer and employees by having a digital system with a little bit more flexibility in it, just like most other industries!

Traincrew book on and off at their home location , employees would then need to insure their own cars for business use . As AFAIK this is needed if you commute to different places of work at your employers direction .

Some depots also already have issues with car parking with some traincrew having to get parking passes etc , in some locations(usually major cities) traincrew also pay for their parking (albeit heavily subsidised) .Believe it or not you also have some drivers who do not drive or have a license to do so .

But none of this is realy relevant to the use of FAX machines , driving to different locations in your own car would require a change ot terms and conditions of employment , and manifestly change the job so rightly would need negotiation .

 

[Parham Wood]

What I should have said was that when faxing was extensively used in business, the shipping industry stuck to telex when it was being phased out elsewhere.

Telex would have been cheaper I believe particularly for international communication. I know a major oil company used telex for a lot of its international communication up to the late 80s early 90s because private telex lines were cheaper than data lines. Messages to many locations were sent using standard 50 baud lines (about 66 words a minute) but to some half and quarter speed lines were used eg to Nigeria. Communication was for essential information and was succinct. Lines were also more reliable and I recall telex lines were normally the last to be cut during a coup in Nigeria and the first to be restored.

 

[Ediswan]

Traincrew book on and off at their home location , employees would then need to insure their own cars for business use . As AFAIK this is needed if you commute to different places of work at your employers direction .

My last employer covered business use of employee vehicles under the company insurance. A copy of the insurance certifciate was supplied.

 

[sor]

Doesn't the railway still operate its own internal telecoms network? Would these fax machines not be on that network or are they actually connected to standard BT lines? I assume these are machines at stations/depots rather than in homes.

Phone lines for alarms are dying off even faster than PSTN. Redcare (BT’s alarm network) went to stop-sell a while ago and the system is now actively being shutdown. The PSTN lines themselves will be gone soon also.

Redcare as a whole is being shut down though - even the modern mobile and internet based stuff that BT came up with as a replacement for the original Redcare service (and ironically that put them well ahead of many alarm companies who still don't seem to understand what this VoIP stuff is)

though to be pedantic the 2025/2027 end date for the PSTN relates to BT's own network. Other companies that offered landline phone services (Sky, TalkTalk, Virgin, etc) do so without reliance on BT's equipment and can choose to set their own date. BT themselves are introducing a new landline service, called "pre digital phone line", where all that changes is the exchange equipment. This is the medium term "bodge" to get beyond 2027 for those users who cannot be moved to an IP based solution for some reason.

Not necessarily. Most modern fax machines can work over VoIP, but it does require some additional setup.

It isn't impossible, but it's not easy to get to a state where it works reliably. That's why e-fax services became more common for those use cases that can't simply be done by email or other online service.

AFAIK even BT doesn't promise that faxing will work over their PSTN replacement services.

 

[matchmaker]

Only because of bandwidth... Inmarsat C is a telex based system that was very much cheaper than the alternative satellite based systems at the time.

I was referring to land based telex between shipbrokers, etc.

 

[Parham Wood]

Because the network that supports fax machines will stop working in 2027.

Because the railway is a heavily unionised industry and the unions block changes that are noncontroversial in 99% of workplaces because they think, usually correctly, that they can extort extra money from employers in return for graciously agreeing that members will do things "the new way".

This is of course a sign of weak management. Unions have their place to ensure a fair, safe and sensible workplace for staff but not to block changes or ask for more money just because it is a different way of doing things.

 

[TurboMan]

This is of course a sign of weak management. Unions have their place to ensure a fair, safe and sensible workplace for staff but not to block changes or ask for more money just because it is a different way of doing things.

How would you manage the relationship with ASLEF, knowing that taking a strong position on anything results in the union instructing their members to stop volunteering to work on rest days, thus decimating the service for the public? As long as there is a reliance on rest-day working, the relationship will always be skewed in the union's favour.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes, that's how it currently happens. But wouldn't it be nicer if your car was in the place where you finish your day... If you could spend more time driving a train and less time in the back of a taxi... If you had time to complete a full roster rather than needing 2 people to cover it... If your TOC didn't need the expense of paying for taxis...
There are massive benefits to employer and employees by having a digital system with a little bit more flexibility in it, just like most other industries!

So should the driver use their own car to travel to their starting location which is remote from their home depot? Using their own fuel which they have paid for, and on their own motoring insurance policy which would quite possibly not include business use so they may not be covered in the event of an accident? And what happens then if they are involved in an accident or get a puncture etc? There's a reason why TOC use taxis from an approved company to move drivers around.

The PSTN phone network is being switched off in the coming years which will make them unusable.

This has already been debunked upthread as incorrect.

 

[43066]

Training would be for the specific systems/software packages to be used, rather than how to operate the devices themselves - and is quite normal across a range of companies. An e-learning video showing people the steps of submitting a leave request, or how to process a shift swap, how to acknowledge a notice etc, would be quite normal training for any company when introducing a new system as they all do things slightly differently and have their own quirks.

Indeed. Notices being the key one in a railway context. It’s an odd subject for people to get so het up about.

Why would anyone who works in rail care how astounded 'real world' people are?

I'm sure there are plenty of outdated or archaic working practices in existence in say, the NHS, or the Police Force, or in many other industries. If those practices work for them, what business is it of anyone else's to comment or feel entitled to pass judgement? I couldn't care less what happens in any industry that I don't work in, so why do you?

Indeed. There’s also an odd implied assumption that railway employees haven’t worked in other industries. “In the real world” is generally a euphemism for low pay and poor Ts and Cs.

Many of you have just heard senior managers from Northern saying they still use fax , and cant turn them off because of "union agreements" and jumped to wild assumptions about it being union
belligerence. I am sure if ASLEF come out and said that a TOC wouldn't let them use more up to date tech because of management belligerence many of you would be quick to doubt what was being said .

That’s exactly what this appears to be. A “dead cat”, as someone suggested above, to try and take the focus off the failure to deliver the service. It appears to have worked like a charm with certain posters.

Anyway the more appropriate and immediate replacement for the fax machines in these remote locations is a networked printer , because the information being conveyed via fax in most cases still needs to br printed . That could be done already without any need to negotiate and indeed in some cases the "fax machine" is multifunction device already capable of and even sometimes being used as a networked printer as well .

Certainly where I’ve worked “fax it” is a euphemism for printing it at a particular location using a networked printer/photocopier. I wonder if that is what happens at Northern but has somehow been lost in translation. The key point is you need a physical diagram to be sent and printed out at a particular location, so whether that’s done by a networked printer or a fax makes little difference.

Imagine any other business where there was no one to staff the Wakefield office that day, you were asked to cover it, and said 'Yes, but I must clock in at the Leeds office first and then take the transport you arrange to get me to Wakefield'.

Once again completely failing to understand the context of safety critical staff, where TOCs increasingly go to lengths to ensure peoples’ commutes are built into fatigue management systems. So no, it wouldn’t generally be acceptable for drivers to be told “you need to drive to a depot X miles further from where you live”.

Yes, that's how it currently happens. But wouldn't it be nicer if your car was in the place where you finish your day... If you could spend more time driving a train and less time in the back of a taxi... If you had time to complete a full roster rather than needing 2 people to cover it... If your TOC didn't need the expense of paying for taxis...
There are massive benefits to employer and employees by having a digital system with a little bit more flexibility in it, just like most other industries!

The car is in the place where you start and finish your day if you drive to your depot and book on, and it’s then up to the TOC to get you back there by the end of your shift. Everything else suggested above sounds like an advantage to the employer only, and a potential fatigue risk.

 

[D6130]

I received a message from a friend in Sowerby Bridge this morning informing me that, when he boarded his train to Leeds - which was dead on-time for a change - there was almost immediately a recorded announcement apologising for the delay to that service! Perhaps the on-board fax machine was defective?

 

[12LDA28C]

Imagine any other business where there was no one to staff the Wakefield office that day, you were asked to cover it, and said 'Yes, but I must clock in at the Leeds office first and then take the transport you arrange to get me to Wakefield'.

Seems perfectly reasonable for a driver to do that, i.e. book on at his correct location, go to his locker to pick up his driver's bag and essential equipment, read the late notice case and then use company provided transport, which is fully insured to take him to the remote location to begin his shift. You don't seem to have a very good grasp of how things work on the railway.

 

[m0ffy]

It isn't impossible, but it's not easy to get to a state where it works reliably. That's why e-fax services became more common for those use cases that can't simply be done by email or other online service.

AFAIK even BT doesn't promise that faxing will work over their PSTN replacement services.

Not that easy is a massive understatement. It was a big part of why we dumped fax (plus it’s daft to digitise a document then transmit it via an analogue modem over a digital network), and I work for a large company with a telephony team and an internal telco. Fax needs a circuit switched environment to work reliably, and that is being relegated to the annals of history.

 

[The exile]

Seems perfectly reasonable for a driver to do that, i.e. book on at his correct location, go to his locker to pick up his driver's bag and essential equipment, read the late notice case and then use company provided transport, which is fully insured to take him to the remote location to begin his shift. You don't seem to have a very good grasp of how things work on the railway.

This is exactly what was done in my “real world” company in those weird pre-lockdown days when it still seemed possible that having half the staff in an emergency back-up office elsewhere might enable something like BAU. People turned up at the normal premises to be bussed to the alternative.

 

[Llama]

8 pages so far on this thread, has anyone pointed out that Northern haven't used actual fax machines for about 15 years, rather that they use scanned documents sent by email instead?

 

[Darandio]

8 pages so far on this thread, has anyone pointed out that Northern haven't used actual fax machines for about 15 years, rather that they use scanned documents sent by email instead?

No. But at least one Northern employee has said they do use fax machines. Who's telling porkies?

 

[Llandudno]

Indeed. The Northern management come across like a couple running a corner shop.

But ‘corner shops’ tend to open on Sundays…..!

 

[43066]

8 pages so far on this thread, has anyone pointed out that Northern haven't used actual fax machines for about 15 years, rather that they use scanned documents sent by email instead?

Just as I suspected - thanks. A lot of hot air over nothing!

 

[Llama]

There might be the odd actual fax machine still at far flung backwaters like Buxton for traincrew to send odd bits and pieces, but even then I suspect they were got rid of years ago. But the ones I used at Northern were definitely scanning to email since about the time centralised rostering came in in 2009. Don't forget that the practice is often still referee to as 'faxing' even though it's not. And a fair few people wouldn't understand the difference anyway.

 

[Djgr]

No. But at least one Northern employee has said they do use fax machines. Who's telling porkies?

That's what the MD clearly said in the meeting (You can watch this video!)

 

[43066]

Don't forget that the practice is often still referee to as 'faxing' even though it's not. And a fair few people wouldn't understand the difference anyway.

That’s precisely the point I was making in #222, and was the same at both TOCs I’ve worked for.

 

[Llama]

The MD will have an agenda to try to agitate to force unions round the table to discuss a 'technology' productivity agreement. She will likely have said the word faxing even if she was well aware (no guarantees, I've bet some pretty clueless senior management in my time) that they're not faxes but scanned emails, because this implies more archaic practices than those that are actually used and suits her narrative.

 

[Dai Corner]

8 pages so far on this thread, has anyone pointed out that Northern haven't used actual fax machines for about 15 years, rather that they use scanned documents sent by email instead?

That's worse than fax if the documents are computer produced. Why print out, scan in, attach to an email, send, receive and print out again? Or are all these diagrams, notices etc handwritten?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Directly and immediately to an electronic device at 04.30:01, before he/she is anywhere near a cab, just like happens in some other operators.

Ok that’s fine but by 04.55 the device is switched off as the driver is relieving another train and now has no access to the calling pattern or headcode of the train. Unless he’s supposed to have memorised everything.

 

[zwk500]

Ok that’s fine but by 04.55 the device is switched off as the driver is relieving another train and now has no access to the calling pattern or headcode of the train. Unless he’s supposed to have memorised everything.

Or the driver prints off the new sheets immediately after receiving them on the depot printer.

 

[43066]

That's worse than fax if the documents are computer produced. Why print out, scan in, attach to an email, send, receive and print out again? Or are all these diagrams, notices etc handwritten?

Ah, so now the criticism is moving to how the railway isn’t using fax?

The documents are centrally produced and sent to the local depots where they are printed. This means they can be reissued to other locations if necessary.

Or the driver prints off the new sheets immediately after receiving them on the depot printer.

No way to do that if you don’t have any way of accessing the IT system, and/or there’s no train crew supervisor to do it for you at 0500, this is why networked printers tend to be used. Generally the printing is done the previous night but it means they can be printed again locally if necessary (so long as there is paper and toner in the printer of course!).

The reason it’s so important is because of concerns about failures to call etc. if you somehow end up with an incorrect diagram. Hence as a driver, I really want the diagram printed out by someone else, so I can’t be accused of getting it wrong!

 

[zwk500]

No way to do that if you don’t have any way of accessing the IT system, and/or there’s no train crew supervisor to do it for you - this is why networked printers tend to be used.

I had taken it as read that the depot printer would be networked, and on the same LAN as the driver's device. If the driver has received an alert on the roster system, they evidently have access to the IT System.

Driver receives alert, reviews sheets, sends back any queries/challenges if needed or acknowledges/accepts the sheets, then prints the sheets from the system direct to the depot's networked printer (or possibly requires to export to PDF first and then print that, adds about 1 minute). Printer scans work ID card (with typed login backup) and then can print off any or all jobs in the list for that driver.

 

[Dai Corner]

Ah, so now the criticism is moving to how the railway isn’t using fax?

The documents are centrally produced and sent to the local depots where they are printed. This means they can be reissued to other locations if necessary.

Not really, just that I don't understand why you would use paper, ink and administrators' time printing, scanning and attaching things to emails, printing them again at depots and then sending them on (by hand? by train? by car?) to the other locations when the computer where they are originated could send them to be printed at those locations without any human intervention. Better still, the recipients could receive them as emails and print them out if they needed a hard copy. Another advantage of emails is that you can have an audit trail to see if they've been read.

I get why electronic devices are banned in some driving cabs, but surely drivers can be professional enough to keep the diagram up on their tablets and not get distracted while driving?

I was a business process analyst in a previous life and these were just the sort of things we'd pick up on, albeit in offices rather than railway depots.