Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[43066]

I had taken it as read that the depot printer would be networked, and on the same LAN as the driver's device. If the driver has received an alert on the roster system, they evidently have access to the IT System.

Driver receives alert, reviews sheets, sends back any queries/challenges if needed or acknowledges/accepts the sheets, then prints the sheets from the system direct to the depot's networked printer (or possibly requires to export to PDF first and then print that, adds about 1 minute). Printer scans work ID card (with typed login backup) and then can print off any or all jobs in the list for that driver.

This doesn’t happen everywhere. In my case I have no work device, hence no way of accessing IT to print anything. The “roster system” is the daily sheets being displayed three days in advance (which the drivers of course distribute by WhatsApp these days). The diagrams themselves are printed the day before with any relevant amends and left at the booking on point.

No reason it couldn’t work as above but there is no time allocated in the booking on process for drivers to print diagrams, plus you’d have issues with the printer breaking down and several needing to use it at once. So printing everything the day before just works better.

Notably my last TOC did issue devices for notices etc., but we still had centralised printing of diagrams.

Not really, just that I don't understand why you would use paper, ink and administrators' time printing, scanning and attaching things to emails, printing them again at depots and then sending them on (by hand? by train? by car?) to the other locations when the computer where they are originated could send them to be printed at those locations without any human intervention. Better still, the recipients could receive them as emails and print them out if they needed a hard copy. Another advantage of emails is that you can have an audit trail to see if they've been read

AIUI they’re produced on whatever software is used, distributed electronically by email and then only physically printed at the local depot.

I get why electronic devices are banned in some driving cabs, but surely drivers can be professional enough to keep the diagram up on their tablets and not get distracted while driving?

The policy needs updating first - currently devices are banned in all but limited circumstances, and not all drivers have devices! A paper diagram is also arguably more useful for highlighting stops, annotating with formation length, unit numbers etc.

 

[fishwomp]

Just as I suspected - thanks. A lot of hot air over nothing

So, if it were not true that fax machines are being used, that pretty much means a lot of people have been claiming "
.. it would be the end of the world, it'd be unsafe, we'd need to be paid more, it couldn't work on the railway, and you can't do that overnight." for something that actually is OK.

Could it be, that actually, the problem is "change". You can insert any word you want instead of "fax" and we can have the same thread.. ("microwave" (yes), "paper", "hamsters"...)

 

[43066]

So, if it were not true that fax machines are being used, that pretty much means a lot of people have been claiming "
.. it would be the end of the world, it'd be unsafe, we'd need to be paid more, it couldn't work on the railway, and you can't do that overnight." for something that actually is OK.

Could it be, that actually, the problem is "change". You can insert any word you want instead of "fax" and we can have the same thread.. ("microwave" (yes), "paper", "hamsters"...)

Still missing the point that the means of getting diagrams to devices is irrelevant to Northern’s woes, so why are management so keen to talk about it in a misleading way?

It seems that you are just looking to criticise the staff/union side whatever the reality of the situation, and are now reduced to trotting out ridiculous claims from the Daily Mail which were debunked at the time they were first made.

 

[zwk500]

This doesn’t happen everywhere. In my case I have no work device, hence no way of accessing IT to print anything.

Notably my last TOC did issue devices for notices etc., but we still had centralised printing of diagrams.

If every driver is being issued a device for the notices then that same device being able to handle the rosters and printing is hardly a big step.

The “roster system” is the daily sheets being displayed three days in advance (which the drivers of course distribute by WhatsApp these days).

So it's already distributed electronically to people's phones. Why not remove the middle man and issues of dodgy photography by just giving everybody access to the published sheets through an online portal?

The diagrams themselves are printed the day before with any relevant amends and left at the booking on point.

No reason it couldn’t work as above but there is no time allocated in the booking on process for drivers to print diagrams, plus you’d have issues with the printer breaking down and several needing to use it at once. So printing everything the day before just works better.

The specific scenario I was responding to was for late-notice changes.

In the case of the regular duties then printing things out the day before is fine - the printer breaking down could be covered by having 2 for redundancy/busy times, and it should be a smaller group who need to print last-minute. Some changes may be small enough to be hand amended on the sheet. Regarding time in the booking on process - that would obviously need to be changed to include that! It'd be part of an updated 'checking notices' time or something.

 

[PupCuff]

To be honest, I was astounded the industry still used fax when I started 11 years ago and it's still a mystery now.

We don't need to go off on a tangent about electronic devices being provided to drivers or changes to electronic device policies etc. Whilst it would be great to have, it's a massive, massive jump from "phasing out the use of fax" to introducing some bespoke enterprise system for dissemination of rosters, operating notices etc.

The first step should be the simplest - any of the commercial printers being provided at depots and offices should be capable of scanning and sending things via email, and remote printing as necessary. If you can use the printer to send a fax, you are going to be able to use the same printer to scan to email!

 

[Darandio]

Just as I suspected - thanks. A lot of hot air over nothing!

A known Northern employee stated early in the thread that they still do use fax machines. You've just replied to someone that says they don't use them.

I couldn't care less either way but they cannot both be correct.

 

[Djgr]

A known Northern employee stated early in the thread that they still do use fax machines. You've just replied to someone that says they don't use them.

I couldn't care less either way but they cannot both be correct.

What is true is that Northern management were asked by Andy Burnham whether it was true that Northern still used faxes.

They answered that they did, to the astonishment and to be honest anger of those in the (virtual) room. There then followed quite a long discussion round this.

It was clear that Andy Burnham and the others were very very unhappy with Northern, told them that the recovery plan that they had written was very poor and to throw it in the waste bin and produce a revised one ASAP.

 

[35B]

So should the driver use their own car to travel to their starting location which is remote from their home depot? Using their own fuel which they have paid for, and on their own motoring insurance policy which would quite possibly not include business use so they may not be covered in the event of an accident? And what happens then if they are involved in an accident or get a puncture etc? There's a reason why TOC use taxis from an approved company to move drivers around.

That's what expenses payments are for. If I drive (using my car and fuel), I am paid for that mileage at HMRC rates. For the first 10,000 miles, the rate is higher (45p/mile from memory), after which it falls.

There may be other good reasons for staff to go to their depot to sign-on, then be transferred by taxi (though none of those quoted leap out as definitive) ; that of driving to location B instead of location A does not strike me as one of them - obviously assuming that B is within the same radius of the driver's home as A.

 

[Dai Corner]

It was clear that Andy Burnham and the others were very very unhappy with Northern, told them that the recovery plan that they had written was very poor and to throw it in the waste bin and produce a revised one ASAP.

"Of course, Mr. Burnham. We'll fax it through as soon as it's ready"

 

[Thechopperguy]

So it's been reported today that Northern are blaming unions on the reason they still use fax machines in 2024....could this be true or just another example of union bashing?!

True or not if it ain't broken why try and fix it i.e if it works for Northern leave it working

 

[66701GBRF]

That's what expenses payments are for. If I drive (using my car and fuel), I am paid for that mileage at HMRC rates. For the first 10,000 miles, the rate is higher (45p/mile from memory), after which it falls.

There may be other good reasons for staff to go to their depot to sign-on, then be transferred by taxi (though none of those quoted leap out as definitive) ; that of driving to location B instead of location A does not strike me as one of them - obviously assuming that B is within the same radius of the driver's home as A.

The 45p rate has not been updated for years, it is no longer adequate to take into account fuel, wear and tear and excess millage. It also doesn't take into account accidental damage such as pot holes or punctures.

 

[12LDA28C]

That's what expenses payments are for. If I drive (using my car and fuel), I am paid for that mileage at HMRC rates. For the first 10,000 miles, the rate is higher (45p/mile from memory), after which it falls.

There may be other good reasons for staff to go to their depot to sign-on, then be transferred by taxi (though none of those quoted leap out as definitive) ; that of driving to location B instead of location A does not strike me as one of them - obviously assuming that B is within the same radius of the driver's home as A.

Again, as I mentioned, taxis provided by a TOC are used as a agreed supplier and covered by the employer's insurance. A driver using their own car would most likely not be covered if no business use insurance was included on their policy. It's not just about claiming the fuel costs back, which is at the rate of 45p per mile as you say.

 

[Darandio]

True or not if it ain't broken why try and fix it i.e if it works for Northern leave it working

And it's been repeatedly pointed out that in the very near future they won't work at all, at least not within the current setup. So why not be proactive and get it sorted?

 

[Thechopperguy]

And it's been repeatedly pointed out that in the very near future they won't work at all, at least not within the current setup. So why not be proactive and get it sorted?

I wasn't aware of that. If the setup is changing then fair enough

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Or the driver prints off the new sheets immediately after receiving them on the depot printer.

My work tablet has no connection to the printer. I have no way of printing anything.

If I book on for duty and I’m covering one of my depot’s jobs with no last minute amendments or additions then the diagram will be waiting in the folder. Beyond that, if I have a note asking me to amend somewhere and cover something else (eg. drive a train I should be passing on), or if I’m spare and pick up something from another depot I have to call the resource centre and ask them to fax me through a diagram. There is no way of me printing it, and also no way of me viewing it until I have the paper copy.

And I don’t work for Northern.

 

[43066]

If every driver is being issued a device for the notices then that same device being able to handle the rosters and printing is hardly a big step.

But the devices do need to be issued (and agreed by the union, training provided etc.) first. That has already happened in many places and there’s scope for it to continue, and the recent industrial dispute was a key blocker. It isn’t directly relevant to the point about printing though.

So it's already distributed electronically to people's phones. Why not remove the middle man and issues of dodgy photography by just giving everybody access to the published sheets through an online portal?

The union rep receives the rosters in electronic form and sends on WhatsApp so there’s no dodgy photography issues. However the “official” method (crucially the three days notice) is that the sheets need to be made available in the depot. I agree it makes no difference if they were sent straight to a device.

The specific scenario I was responding to was for late-notice changes.

In the case of the regular duties then printing things out the day before is fine - the printer breaking down could be covered by having 2 for redundancy/busy times, and it should be a smaller group who need to print last-minute. Some changes may be small enough to be hand amended on the sheet. Regarding time in the booking on process - that would obviously need to be changed to include that! It'd be part of an updated 'checking notices' time or something.

That can already be handled just as efficiently by resources amending the diagram and printing direct to the depot. Until we move away from paper diagrams (which I doubt will be any time soon for the reasons noted above), you don’t really gain anything by the driver having to do it.

If anything guarantee they will want to avoid this because relying on drivers doing it themselves introduces another point of failure, leading to trains leaving late or being cancelled.

The first step should be the simplest - any of the commercial printers being provided at depots and offices should be capable of scanning and sending things via email, and remote printing as necessary. If you can use the printer to send a fax, you are going to be able to use the same printer to scan to email!

This is already done, but is often (incorrectly) referred to as “faxing”. I suspect you’re at the same TOC I am and I’m not aware of actual fax machines being used for crew diagramming purposes, at least at my depot.

There may be other good reasons for staff to go to their depot to sign-on, then be transferred by taxi (though none of those quoted leap out as definitive) ; that of driving to location B instead of location A does not strike me as one of them - obviously assuming that B is within the same radius of the driver's home as A.

Fatigue being a key one. My next nearest depot is 100+ miles by road, and another hour (at least) by public transport. Plus the need to finish at the same depot within shift parameters.

There are some limited agreements for booking on a different locations (Heathrow Express has one AIUI) but they simply won’t be practical in many cases.

A known Northern employee stated early in the thread that they still do use fax machines. You've just replied to someone that says they don't use them.

I couldn't care less either way but they cannot both be correct.

@Moonshot clarified in post #58 that it was network printer he was referring to.

 

[Darandio]

@Moonshot clarified in post #58 that it was network printer he was referring to.

That isn't how I read it but it would make a great deal more sense.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The obvious disadvantage of a fax in the situation you describe is what if control's plans change whilst he is in the taxi. They can't now update him with a new plan until he gets to another fax machine, by when it may be too late!

If they were driving their own car from Depot A to Depot B, then they wouldn't see any change of plan until they arrived at Depot B anyway (unless they are either expected to illegally check their emails while driving, or delay their arrival compared with a taxi by keep stopping every so often to check).

So while being given a tablet would mean they could see the revised plan once they've parked up in Depot B's car park, it wouldn't mean they'll see it any sooner than if they were in a taxi. In fact, if they had a tablet in a taxi, then they would actually be able to see it sooner than if in their own car.

 

[muz379]

Another factor with taxis is that the timings are agreed , so for example from depot A to depot/relieving point B there will be an agreed taxi time that is used for diagraming purposes and when giving people altered work when they are spare .

If they were driving their own car from Depot A to Depot B, then they wouldn't see any change of plan until they arrived at Depot B anyway (unless they are either expected to illegally check their emails while driving, or delay their arrival compared with a taxi by keep stopping every so often to check).

So while being given a tablet would mean they could see the revised plan once they've parked up in Depot B's car park, it wouldn't mean they'll see it any sooner than if they were in a taxi. In fact, if they had a tablet in a taxi, then they would actually be able to see it sooner than if in their own car.

This , also often there will be multiple train crew in a taxi , say a driver and a guard if a train is being started from elsewhere , makes sense cos once that one taxi arrives you know both members of train crew are there . Drivers often travel together to depots or sidings if they are picking up more than one unit .

So even if we did have the company cover train crew for driving their own cars to other locations , you'd open up a huge can of worms if you did suggest people give each other lifts as well .I also know quite a few bikers in the industry as well , they won't be giving lifts .

Two members of train crew separately driving to another location doubles the environmental impact and all . But also imparts a performance risk as well .

Not really, just that I don't understand why you would use paper, ink and administrators' time printing, scanning and attaching things to emails, printing them again at depots

The railway loves a form , arguably it's easier for a lot of things and less likely to fail when you most need it as well during degraded working .

That's what expenses payments are for. If I drive (using my car and fuel), I am paid for that mileage at HMRC rates. For the first 10,000 miles, the rate is higher (45p/mile from memory), after which it falls.

5 minutes on the day to fill out expenses, you'd bust the links and diagrams in some places doing that.

 

[robert thomas]

The 45p rate has not been updated for years, it is no longer adequate to take into account fuel, wear and tear and excess millage. It also doesn't take into account accidental damage such as pot holes or punctures.

But there are people on the forum who maintain that the only cost of running a car once you have it is the petrol and then use this as a comparison to argue that rail fares are extortionate.

 

[WAB]

Don't forget that the practice is often still referee to as 'faxing' even though it's not. And a fair few people wouldn't understand the difference anyway.

In the same vein as paging out disruption, sending a wire, or sending a telex... old habits die hard.

 

[Dai Corner]

The union rep receives the rosters in electronic form and sends on WhatsApp so there’s no dodgy photography issues. However the “official” method (crucially the three days notice) is that the sheets need to be made available in the depot. I agree it makes no difference if they were sent straight to a device.

That can already be handled just as efficiently by resources amending the diagram and printing direct to the depot. Until we move away from paper diagrams (which I doubt will be any time soon for the reasons noted above), you don’t really gain anything by the driver having to do it.

If anything guarantee they will want to avoid this because relying on drivers doing it themselves introduces another point of failure, leading to trains leaving late or being cancelled.

A driver not receiving his/her paperwork only disrupts his/her work for the day.

A Union rep not being able to get into WhatsApp (a third party product with no guaranteed service levels as far as I know) could disrupt a whole depot.

How do drivers find out what they're supposed to be doing after returning to work after three or more days absence?

 

[Killingworth]

What is true is that Northern management were asked by Andy Burnham whether it was true that Northern still used faxes.

They answered that they did, to the astonishment and to be honest anger of those in the (virtual) room. There then followed quite a long discussion round this.

It was clear that Andy Burnham and the others were very very unhappy with Northern, told them that the recovery plan that they had written was very poor and to throw it in the waste bin and produce a revised one ASAP.

The meeting was early on 30th October. A Northern Trains Remedial Plan 30 October2034.v2 was attached to the Agenda. At the conclusion an updated plan was supposed to be submitted on 31st October. Or that was what I thought I heard. Not a lot of time for a new one.

 

[35B]

The 45p rate has not been updated for years, it is no longer adequate to take into account fuel, wear and tear and excess millage. It also doesn't take into account accidental damage such as pot holes or punctures.

It's not generous, but it's far from unreasonable.

 

[muz379]

A Union rep not being able to get into WhatsApp (a third party product with no guaranteed service levels as far as I know) could disrupt a whole depot.

How do drivers find out what they're supposed to be doing after returning to work after three or more days absence?

Where I worked at a TOC , reps distributing job cards via whatsapp , or people posting pictures of the rosters was not an official channel of distribution . Loads of people didnt join whatsapp groups for various reasons anyway .

In terms of finding out . Oficially if you were on a booked job you turned in at the time on your link , if the job changed the onus was on the company to contact you and tell you . If you were spare the onus was on you to contact work and find out if you had been given anything and what time you booked on if it was a full job .

In the real world , most people looked at the sheets posted in a whatsapp group , or got a mate who was in work to check for them .

 

[43066]

A driver not receiving his/her paperwork only disrupts his/her work for the day.

A Union rep not being able to get into WhatsApp (a third party product with no guaranteed service levels as far as I know) could disrupt a whole depot.

A driver not receiving a diagram can disrupt several peoples’ days. It’s hard to imagine that WhatsApp is going to be more likely to “go down”, than the wider internet/mobile data network, and the union rep in our case reliably sends the sheets out.

It’s still an unofficial method, however. If you haven’t checked the sheets, and fail to show up to work when you should, there’s no blaming the union for not sending them out. Equally if work make a rostering error (or commit a faux pas such as changing the sheets with less than the agreed notice, as has been known to happen) there’s no obligation to tell them in advance if you haven’t “officially” seen it.

How do drivers find out what they're supposed to be doing after returning to work after three or more days absence?

Generally with reference to the base roster or, if spare, a call to/from resources to confirm. Certainly if you’re allocated rest day work, resuming from sick etc., you generally get a call to ensure you’ve “officially” seen it.

Where I worked at a TOC , reps distributing job cards via whatsapp , or people posting pictures of the rosters was not an official channel of distribution . Loads of people didnt join whatsapp groups for various reasons anyway .

In terms of finding out . Oficially if you were on a booked job you turned in at the time on your link , if the job changed the onus was on the company to contact you and tell you . If you were spare the onus was on you to contact work and find out if you had been given anything and what time you booked on if it was a full job .

In the real world , most people looked at the sheets posted in a whatsapp group , or got a mate who was in work to check for them .

Same as where I am, basically. It generally works fine.

 

[Djgr]

The meeting was early on 30th October. A Northern Trains Remedial Plan 30 October2034.v2 was attached to the Agenda. At the conclusion an updated plan was supposed to be submitted on 31st October. Or that was what I thought I heard. Not a lot of time for a new one.

My understanding was that the updated plan was required later in November and that the 31st of October plan had already been rejected (perhaps the 30th and 31st October plans were actually the same?).

I certainly got the impression that they were told to start from scratch as Northern's plan was a million miles away from being acceptable.

 

[contrex]

In my Civil Service office, we didn't use the fax much until around 2012 the Ministry got a service called GoldFax where incoming faxes to a specific Goldfax number were converted to PDF email attachments and sent to our shared inbox. All of a sudden, I realised, we could, by faxing a paper document to that number, in effect scan it electronically. This tided us over until we were issued with a huge networked Xerox multifunction device in 2016. It worked the other way around; we could send an email to a specific GoldFax address with a fax number as the subject and it would emerge from the fax machine at that number. GoldFax is still a thing now.

 

[Bikeman78]

This is rather naive. Do you think the VHS is also still fit for the purpose it was designed? What about 3G?

I still have cassette tapes and CDs. I'm a bit gutted that my new car doesn't have a CD player. I guess it will be the radio from now on.

 

[Dai Corner]

A driver not receiving a diagram can disrupt several peoples’ days. It’s hard to imagine that WhatsApp is going to be more likely to “go down”, than the wider internet/mobile data network, and the union rep in our case reliably sends the sheets out.

It’s still an unofficial method, however. If you haven’t checked the sheets, and fail to show up to work when you should, there’s no blaming the union for not sending them out. Equally if work make a rostering error (or commit a faux pas such as changing the sheets with less than the agreed notice, as has been known to happen) there’s no obligation to tell them in advance if you haven’t “officially” seen it.



Generally with reference to the base roster or, if spare, a call to/from resources to confirm. Certainly if you’re allocated rest day work, resuming from sick etc., you generally get a call to ensure you’ve “officially” seen it.



Same as where I am, basically. It generally works fine.

They answer calls from the company on their personal phones?