Northern Stoke-on-Trent line on Sundays

[py_megapixel]

I had a journey on Northern's stopping service between Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester today. On a Sunday this route has a 2-hourly all-stations service. With a full circuit (MAN-SOT-MAN) taking slightly under 4 hours, one would assume that this route is worked by 2 units at any one time on a Sunday.

One would therefore also assume that, on weekdays, where the frequency is doubled to hourly, so is the number of trains. So 4 units would be used at any one time.

Of course, those assumptions could well be completely wrong! But, assuming they are correct:

Usually, on a weekday, the same units seem to stay on the route from the morning to at least early afternoon. But, on a Sunday, this seems not to be the case. On my journey today, I had 323229 out and 331006 back. But, on my return journey, I saw 323229 parked in the sidings at Stockport. So is the diagram different on Sundays?

Additional information: I tweeted @northernassist that the toilet on 323229 was out of order, as I was unable to find a conductor to report this to, but I assume they wouldn't simply take a unit out of service at short notice like that based upon a singular customer complaint?

Or, are all my assumptions completely wrong?

 

[Thomas6187]

One Diagram, the 323, works from Stoke in the morning before going ECS to Stockport at 1048. It then comes back to Manchester at 2016 to work the 2024 Piccadilly-Stoke. The other diagram, the 331, works all the remaining service.

During the week there is 3 diagram working the Stoke route. Roughly an hour each way, with 45 minutes layover at Piccadilly and 15 minutes at Stoke

 

[Glenn1969]

I didn't think the Stoke line had a 2 hourly service

 

[py_megapixel]

One Diagram, the 323, works from Stoke in the morning before going ECS to Stockport at 1048. It then comes back to Manchester at 2016 to work the 2024 Piccadilly-Stoke. The other diagram, the 331, works all the remaining service.

During the week there is 3 diagram working the Stoke route. Roughly an hour each way, with 45 minutes layover at Piccadilly and 15 minutes at Stoke

Aaah. I have misread the timetable - I thought it was around 2 hours each way, but in reality it's 2 hours for a full circuit.

 

[CHAPS2034]

I had a journey on Northern's stopping service between Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester today. On a Sunday this route has a 2-hourly all-stations service.

No it doesn't.

Departures from Piccadilly are at 0853, 1146, 1446, 1846, 2024 and 2127

Return from Stoke is 0930, 1030, 1325, 1630, 2030 and 2300

So anything but clockface or regular intervals. We were promised an hourly Sunday service many moons ago but nothing so far...no doubt due to an issue with the train crew"

 

[323235]

No it doesn't.

Departures from Piccadilly are at 0853, 1146, 1446, 1846, 2024 and 2127

Return from Stoke is 0930, 1030, 1325, 1630, 2030 and 2300

So anything but clockface or regular intervals. We were promised an hourly Sunday service many moons ago but nothing so far...no doubt due to an issue with the train crew"

Last departure from Piccadilly is 2147 not 2127.

 

[A0wen]

No it doesn't.

Departures from Piccadilly are at 0853, 1146, 1446, 1846, 2024 and 2127

Return from Stoke is 0930, 1030, 1325, 1630, 2030 and 2300

So anything but clockface or regular intervals. We were promised an hourly Sunday service many moons ago but nothing so far...no doubt due to an issue with the train crew"

Well, it's far better than it was not so many years ago when there were no trains before lunchtime on a Sunday.

Reality is though there are other trains serving the key stations en route - south of Macclesfield only two stations see a limited service, Congleton and Kidsgrove - though Kidsgrove also gets the LNW and EMT Crewe services. Manchester - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke has both the XC and Avanti WC services providing more journeys.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Well, it's far better than it was not so many years ago when there were no trains before lunchtime on a Sunday.

Reality is though there are other trains serving the key stations en route - south of Macclesfield only two stations see a limited service, Congleton and Kidsgrove - though Kidsgrove also gets the LNW and EMT Crewe services. Manchester - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke has both the XC and Avanti WC services providing more journeys.

'Better than it was years ago' is not a reason to not improve it and make it usable.

Congleton is now a 'key station'

If you think 6 trains per DAY is sufficient then you are wrong.

Please find examples of other stations with around 314,000 passengers per year (reduced from 348k, thanks RMT/Northern!) that has a similarly bad service on a Sunday.

 

[A0wen]

'Better than it was years ago' is not a reason to not improve it and make it usable.

Congleton is now a 'key station'

If you think 6 trains per DAY is sufficient then you are wrong.

Please find examples of other stations with around 314,000 passengers per year (reduced from 348k, thanks RMT/Northern!) that has a similarly bad service on a Sunday.

Congleton is NOT a "key station" - it's a very small town (25,000) and the vast majority of travel demands are on a weekday to Stoke or Manchester for work.

In terms of service, I give you Aberystwyth 0.31m in 18/19 down from 0.34 in 17/18.

Sunday service = 12 departures - 4 of which only go as far as Machynlleth which are positioning moves back to depot. The remaining 8 go to Shrewsbury.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Congleton is NOT a "key station" - it's a very small town (25,000) and the vast majority of travel demands are on a weekday to Stoke or Manchester for work.

In terms of service, I give you Aberystwyth 0.31m in 18/19 down from 0.34 in 17/18.

Sunday service = 12 departures - 4 of which only go as far as Machynlleth which are positioning moves back to depot. The remaining 8 go to Shrewsbury.

Congleton has serious untapped demand and loads of commuters and leisure travellers drive to Macclesfield as a result of a bad service level.
The amount of houses being built in Congleton is also a very good reason to make the service more attractive for new residents.

Aberystwyth is a bad example. It has few commuters and is mainly a leisure station.
Congleton is a very busy commuter station and also has great demand for weekend and leisure travel too.
6 trains per day is NOT enough, that is a FACT. Hence the December 2017 franchise commitment for an hourly service.

Congleton should have 2tph Monday - Saturday and 1tph Sundays. Similar to Tipton.

I also said 'example(s)' and you listed one BAD example.

 

[A0wen]

Congleton has serious untapped demand and loads of commuters and leisure travellers drive to Macclesfield as a result of a bad service level.
The amount of houses being built in Congleton is also a very good reason to make the service more attractive for new residents.

Aberystwyth is a bad example. It has few commuters and is mainly a leisure station.
Congleton is a very busy commuter station and also has great demand for weekend and leisure travel too.
6 trains per day is NOT enough, that is a FACT. Hence the December 2017 franchise commitment for an hourly service.

Congleton should have 2tph Monday - Saturday and 1tph Sundays. Similar to Tipton.

I also said 'example(s)' and you listed one BAD example.

The vast majority of the housing is being built on the west side of Congleton - West Heath and that area. That's the opposite side of town to the station - add in there is relatively limited parking at the station.

Most people I know from Congleton don't drive to Macc to get the train - it's a lousy road - far easier to drive to Holmes Chapel particularly if you're on that side of town.

Either which way - even allowing for those houses, Congleton remains a small town. The justification for an hourly Sunday service is probably marginal - given that's the level of service which Corby - a population of 70,000 + has - and that rarely fills a 5 car Meridian.

Tipton's double the size of Congleton and is part of the West Midlands "urban" area - Congleton is part of semi-rural Cheshire.

You asked for a station with similar use that had a similarly poor service - I provided one. Arguably the train service to Aberystwyth is more important because the road network is even worse than the roads around Congleton are (and most of those are pretty dreadful) and the distances involved in getting to key destinations is that much further.

 

[Starmill]

Congleton is NOT a "key station" - it's a very small town (25,000) and the vast majority of travel demands are on a weekday to Stoke or Manchester for work.

In terms of service, I give you Aberystwyth 0.31m in 18/19 down from 0.34 in 17/18.

Sunday service = 12 departures - 4 of which only go as far as Machynlleth which are positioning moves back to depot. The remaining 8 go to Shrewsbury.

Aberystwyth has significantly better Sunday services for both local and long-distance than Congleton does. There is an hourly service from 0830, twelve of which continue to Shrewsbury and six of which continue to Birmingham.

Essentially not comparable with Congleton at all?

Buxton has had an hourly service on Sundays for several years, and Glossop & Hadfield have had half hourly service for a very long time.

 

[Starmill]

You asked for a station with similar use that had a similarly poor service - I provided one.

Except that you didn't, but OK.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

The vast majority of the housing is being built on the west side of Congleton - West Heath and that area. That's the opposite side of town to the station - add in there is relatively limited parking at the station.

Most people I know from Congleton don't drive to Macc to get the train - it's a lousy road - far easier to drive to Holmes Chapel particularly if you're on that side of town.

Either which way - even allowing for those houses, Congleton remains a small town. The justification for an hourly Sunday service is probably marginal - given that's the level of service which Corby - a population of 70,000 + has - and that rarely fills a 5 car Meridian.

Tipton's double the size of Congleton and is part of the West Midlands "urban" area - Congleton is part of semi-rural Cheshire.

You asked for a station with similar use that had a similarly poor service - I provided one. Arguably the train service to Aberystwyth is more important because the road network is even worse than the roads around Congleton are (and most of those are pretty dreadful) and the distances involved in getting to key destinations is that much further.

Do you have some sort of anti-Congleton agenda?
Why is it such a bad thing for Congleton to get an hourly Sunday service, not exactly asking for 8 tph like they would be in London suburbs.
Does Congleton gaining an hourly Sunday service negatively affect you in some way?
Also Tipton's passenger usage is similar to Congleton's (despite a MUCH better service all week!) so population isn't the best measure.
'probably marginal' - I assume by this that you have no idea how many people use Congleton at all, on any day of the week.
The peak service (0712, 0741, 0812) are always packed. 16:44 from Manchester tends to be the worst.
I've seen 40+ people frequently board the 10:44 to Manchester on a Sunday.
Doesn't just affect Sunday travellers either as many people want to go for a weekend away, leaving on Fri/Sat and returning on Sunday and have to check which connect. If it's cancelled an unpleasant bus, taxi or 4 hour wait is the result.
If the service wasn't justified, northern wouldn't bid for paths and Network Rail wouldn't approve them.

Aberystwyth has significantly better Sunday services for both local and long-distance than Congleton does. There is an hourly service from 0830, twelve of which continue to Shrewsbury and six of which continue to Birmingham.

Essentially not comparable with Congleton at all?

Buxton has had an hourly service on Sundays for several years, and Glossop & Hadfield have had half hourly service for a very long time.

Hexham is also comparably busy to Congleton but gets an hourly service.
Not to mention STYAL with 7,000 passengers per year which has an hourly Sunday service.
The whole Crewe line does too.

 

[A0wen]

The whole Crewe line does too.

For two reasons - firstly, whether you like it or not, as a fate of history Crewe is a major interchanged which Stoke isn't. Secondly, that line is also serving Manchester Airport.

The Stoke line has Kidsgrove (small, with LNW and EMR services owing to its position), Congleton (small town), Macclesfield (large town also gets West Coast and XC services), Prestbury (village), Adlington (village), Poynton (small town), Bramhall (small town). Add in the West Coast and XC services which serve Macc and Stoke, you're basically complaining about half a dozen small places getting, what you consider a poor Sunday service.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

For two reasons - firstly, whether you like it or not, as a fate of history Crewe is a major interchanged which Stoke isn't. Secondly, that line is also serving Manchester Airport.

The Stoke line has Kidsgrove (small, with LNW and EMR services owing to its position), Congleton (small town), Macclesfield (large town also gets West Coast and XC services), Prestbury (village), Adlington (village), Poynton (small town), Bramhall (small town). Add in the West Coast and XC services which serve Macc and Stoke, you're basically complaining about half a dozen small places getting, what you consider a poor Sunday service.

Just ignoring the fact that your example of Aberystwyth being rubbish?
I’ll ask again if congleton gaining an hourly service has some kind of negative affect on you?

For the record: Congleton’s population is less than half of Macclesfield’s... it’s not that much smaller.

Why does Styal or Buxton need an hourly service on a Sunday??

 

[Sentinel]

Never mind about Congleton having a bad service on Sundays and comparing it to Macclesfield, on Sundays the first train from Macc doesn’t get into Manchester until 10.30. Useless service if you want a day out by train to, say, York. Also useless if you want to travel to Scotland and get there by mid-day.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Never mind about Congleton having a bad service on Sundays and comparing it to Macclesfield, on Sundays the first train from Macc doesn’t get into Manchester until 10.30. Useless service if you want a day out by train to, say, York. Also useless if you want to travel to Scotland and get there by mid-day.

The masses will be going to Manchester though, if you miss the first train from Macclesfield your wait is 18m, miss that too and it's a 28m wait.

If you miss the first service from Congleton you have to wait 60 minutes, miss the second and you'll be waiting 2h 55m (Later in the day gaps increase to 4 hours 1644-2044 or 1525-1925) (It takes 3 hours to walk from Congleton to Macclesfield and 2h10m to walk to Kidsgrove!)
If you want to get to Scotland or York earlier go the day before, we have enormous gaps between services and it is unacceptable for a town of that size with the passengers numbers Congleton has.

 

[Glenn1969]

I presume if they thought there was a market XC would stop some trains at Congleton on Sundays in between the Northern ones at least?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I presume if they thought there was a market XC would stop some trains at Congleton on Sundays in between the Northern ones at least?

It's been mentioned but Northern have had a franchise commitment to provide an hourly service commencing December 2017. It's not a case of there not being a market, it's a case of Northern not being able to deliver their service level commitments.

CrossCountry are not required to call on Sundays, as per their franchise commitment, so they don't.

 

[Staffordian]

For two reasons - firstly, whether you like it or not, as a fate of history Crewe is a major interchanged which Stoke isn't. Secondly, that line is also serving Manchester Airport.

The Stoke line has Kidsgrove (small, with LNW and EMR services owing to its position), Congleton (small town), Macclesfield (large town also gets West Coast and XC services), Prestbury (village), Adlington (village), Poynton (small town), Bramhall (small town). Add in the West Coast and XC services which serve Macc and Stoke, you're basically complaining about half a dozen small places getting, what you consider a poor Sunday service.

1) Stoke provides connections to a whole host of significant places which Crewe doesn’t - e.g. Coventry, Oxford, Reading, Southampton, Bournemouth, Bristol, Cheltenham, Exeter. On the other hand Crewe offers connections to Shrewsbury, Hereford, South Wales, North Wales, Preston, Cumbria and Scotland (incidentally all reachable from Congleton with a single change at Stockport or Piccadilly). Both Crewe and Stoke offer connections to London, Milton Keynes and Birmingham.
All in all, Stoke is likely to be just as valuable as an interchange point for Congleton passengers as Crewe is for those from, say, Sandbach.

2) The Northern Sunday service to Crewe does not serve Manchester Airport, as that service terminates at Wilmslow on that day.

3) The Crewe line has Sandbach (pop. 17,976), Holmes Chapel (5,605), Goostrey (2,179), Chelford (1,174), Alderley Edge (4,780) and Handforth (6,266) - total 37,980.
It also has Cheadle Hulme (also served by the Stoke linej and Wilmslow (24,497), a small Cheshire town with a population around 2,000 less than Congleton (26,482), but also served by hourly Avanti/TfW services to London/South Wales.
In comparison, the places you mention on the Stoke line have a combined population of 86,486, well over twice the total of the Crewe line, which basically serves one medium-sized place (Sandbach) and five small ones.
All things being equal, you would expect the Stoke line to have around double the service of the Crewe
line - but as ever, all things are not equal.

4) The Northern franchise agreement specifies 15 Sunday services for both lines - which is achieved for the Crewe line, while Stoke line only has 7.

To sum up, there seems absolutely no logical reason why the Stoke line should be so poorly served on Sundays, other than running the full service on one line (Crewe) enables Northern to tick the box for another ‘franchise commitment achieved’. If both had, say, 11 services per day then they would have failed on two commitments, rather than one, even if this was a more equitable solution.

Of course, from Sunday we have a new franchise operator, not burdened by franchise commitments, so the above will no longer apply. So perhaps OLR will bite the bullet and reduce then Sunday service to Crewe to provide at least a regular two-hourly service for Congleton and the Stoke line !

 

[agbrs_Jack]

To sum up, there seems absolutely no logical reason why the Stoke line should be so poorly served on Sundays, other than running the full service on one line (Crewe) enables Northern to tick the box for another ‘franchise commitment achieved’. If both had, say, 11 services per day then they would have failed on two commitments, rather than one, even if this was a more equitable solution.

Excellent points.
The removal of the franchise commitment due to the OLR was a major reason I wanted (and would still prefer) Arriva to stay on.
Surely if they want to 'tick a box' of a franchise commitment then the Stoke line, featuring larger places, would be a better choice?
Has the fact that the commitment is for 15 Stoke to Blackpool services hindered it maybe.

I have suggested all sorts to Northern:
Hourly Stoke - Macclesfield shuttle (sorry Bramhall/Poynton)
XC stops.
Stoke - Manchester.

The RMT strikes hit Congleton very hard, reducing the latest passenger numbers by 9% after 14 years of increases.
A good way to get that going back in the right direction would be a Sunday service people can use.

 

[Staffordian]

Surely if they want to 'tick a box' of a franchise commitment then the Stoke line, featuring larger places, would be a better choice?

A simple reason for favouring the Crewe line is that, as far as I can see, it requires two units to operate an hourly service, while the Stoke line needs three (with very long layovers at Piccadilly).
At present it seems that on Sundays, two units are used on Crewe and, generally, one on Stoke. If only these resources are available, and the full Stoke service is operated, that would leave the Crewe line with nothing !

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Ahh, comes down to resources again.
Stoke line is mostly one unit yes, a 323 for the early MAN-SOT and back (10:30 from SOT-MAN) then all the rest by the same 331 shuttling between the two.
A Stoke-Macc shuttle would use fewer units but wouldn't serve Prestbury - Bramhall.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You wouldn’t believe we have a nationwide EMU surplus and yet resources are being dragged out as an excuse on a fully electrified line.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I do so love the arguments between commentators in the north west (well Lancashire/Cheshire). Wait til Yorkshire gets involved! I’m sure Northern Powerhouse meetings must be fun.

 

[Staffordian]

A simple reason for favouring the Crewe line is that, as far as I can see, it requires two units to operate an hourly service, while the Stoke line needs three (with very long layovers at Piccadilly).
At present it seems that on Sundays, two units are used on Crewe and, generally, one on Stoke. If only these resources are available, and the full Stoke service is operated, that would leave the Crewe line with nothing !

You wouldn’t believe we have a nationwide EMU surplus and yet resources are being dragged out as an excuse on a fully electrified line.

Sorry - I can see now that my earlier post was rather ambiguous. When I mentioned available resources I was referring to the crew to man these units and the well-known staffing issues in the North-west on Sundays. Clearly there is no shortage of EMUs, even on Northern !

 

[martinsh]

A simple reason for favouring the Crewe line is that, as far as I can see, it requires two units to operate an hourly service, while the Stoke line needs three (with very long layovers at Piccadilly).

Actually the Crewe line timetable requires three units on a Sunday, including a 55 minute layover at Crewe ! [ this is a real layover, not a fictitious one like Wrexham Central ]

 

[boyaloud]

OT but who else thinks it's a poor deal the last train from Manchester to Stoke on weekdays is the 2214 (northern). I think there should be one at about 2300 like on most other lines, 2214 is really a very awkward time as you basically can't get from any theatre show to Piccadilly in time for it, never mind gigs which usually finish 2230-2245.

 

[_toommm_]

Never mind about Congleton having a bad service on Sundays and comparing it to Macclesfield, on Sundays the first train from Macc doesn’t get into Manchester until 10.30. Useless service if you want a day out by train to, say, York. Also useless if you want to travel to Scotland and get there by mid-day.

It’s the same from Glossop and Hatfield aswell. The last service back is only 21:00 too. It’s pretty silly IMO.