Northern strike action suspended

[driver_m]

I really don’t think anyone on the RMT side can complain about antagonistic language considering the RMTs press releases!
It isn’t really compromise if one side don’t want something at all. The Merseyrail deal is preposterous pandering to union blackmail.
I don’t want my car washed. I am not going to compromise and pay someone to only wash the windows.
The only ‘compromise’ is non route specific OBS which gives passengers what they want.

Blackmail. Do you live round here? Seeing as the guards had the public on their side, and knew exactly what happened to Martin Zee and the court case involving the guard jailed. That to me is not blackmail. That was trying to push through something no one wanted, we will pay for the guards and there have been exactly zero protests and petitions in the local rag about paying for them. Give over with the blackmail rubbish.

 

[Meerkat]

The reason all of LU isn’t automatic is because it can only really happen when the need to renew rolling stock and signalling coincides, or the money and political will is there to arrange otherwise

And the main reason that money and political will isn’t there is because of the certainty of huge industrial action and risk that you end up still paying big salaries to drivers.

 

[6Gman]

Exactly Gems. The minute the word 'breaking' gets used in a union context. There's no longer any point in arguing. That's just a way of showing anger that you haven't got your own way. Surprising how many right wing types use this style of language straight out of the daily mail playbook and then call us on the left dinosaurs and various other insults. The key is the word 'compromise'. Driver doing doors, and having a guard just shut them is a perfectly reasonable compromise. You need a presence in the train. One person cannot do it all on their own. I know I'm going to get LU threw at me, but it has an entirely different way of working, for me, the mainline services on BR should entirely be run in this way, South Eastern, GWR, ScotRail Strathclyde services, the lot. My main issue is that before too long, we are going to see a mass unplanned evac on a 3rd rail service that sees someone get zapped or ran over by a train. A guard can stop that if the info can be got out quick enough, a DOO driver can very easily be info overloaded in this point and if one impatient person gets up and walks, you'll see plenty follow them. .

Agree 100% on this. And bear in mind that the driver is at significant risk of being incapacitated in any front-end collision.

 

[6Gman]

I really don’t think anyone on the RMT side can complain about antagonistic language considering the RMTs press releases!
It isn’t really compromise if one side don’t want something at all. The Merseyrail deal is preposterous pandering to union blackmail.
I don’t want my car washed. I am not going to compromise and pay someone to only wash the windows.
The only ‘compromise’ is non route specific OBS which gives passengers what they want.

It might give you what you want. It doesn't give this passenger what he wants. Which is a safety-trained member of staff on the train, other than the driver.

 

[Meerkat]

In what way is removing safety-trained staff from trains "progress"?

OBS

we will pay for the guards

Who is “we”?

 

[driver_m]

Agree 100% on this. And bear in mind that the driver is at significant risk of being incapacitated in any front-end collision.

And the main reason that money and political will isn’t there is because of the certainty of huge industrial action and risk that you end up still paying big salaries to drivers.

The fact that each signal can cost a 7 figure sum might be why investment in the railways isn't a thing that's looked on favourably by the govt, and those pesky disability regs that add big costs. But hey, it's all down to our wages. Lol

OBS



Who is “we”?

Residents of Merseyside. You know, the people who pay for Merseytravel...

 

[driver_m]

Let's turn it to you Meerkat. Say your train gets locked brakes. How does your OBS help you there if they can't go on the track?

 

[bramling]

And the main reason that money and political will isn’t there is because of the certainty of huge industrial action and risk that you end up still paying big salaries to drivers.

This simply isn’t true. The political will hasn’t been there to replace trains and/or signalling which isn’t anywhere near life expired. Like now they can barely afford to replace the fleets on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines, and that certainly isn’t because of the unions.

Bear in mind that falling passenger numbers in the 1980s meant the capacity / performance benefits of ATO simply weren’t needed. Hence most of the Jubilee was resignalled at the time with conventional signalling. Most of the benefits of staffing reduction were achieved via abolishing guards, which reduced things down to one person, without the expense and difficulty of commissioning ATO.

ATO is entirely about capacity and performance, and little to do with staffing. Regardless of whether the driver actually drives the train or not, drivers earn their money through the responsibility they take on being in charge of a train. Even with ATO there’s a lot that can go wrong, and one wouldn’t want any old cowboy in charge of a train.

 

[Carlisle]

Driver doing doors, and having a guard just shut them is a perfectly reasonable compromise .

It isn’t ,the TOC will have to increase the drivers wage just to release the doors whilst no savings or operational flexibility are possible with the guards grade either, so all in all it’ll just make the railway yet more expensive to operate for zero benefit to the user

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who is “we”?

Merseyrail passengers. It's being funded there in part by fare increases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t ,the TOC will have to increase the drivers wage just to release the doors whilst no savings or operational flexibility are possible with the guards grade either, so all in all the railway just becomes more expensive to operate for zero benefit to the user

I can see no justification for any increase in wages just for pressing two buttons each time they stop the train. I also see that driver release is by far the best method of operation with a revenue guard, as they can continue a transaction before going to the doors.

 

[6Gman]

OBS

You'll need to explain that answer.

 

[Val3ntine]

I can see no justification for any increase in wages just for pressing two buttons each time they stop the train. I also see that driver release is by far the best method of operation with a revenue guard, as they can continue a transaction before going to the doors.

Hmmm, to be fair just because you don’t see a justification doesn’t mean there isn’t one. The sudden risk of having to be extra cautious against releasing doors on the wrong side after hours of monotonous work where before that risk didn’t exist? The same can be said for stopping short after a quick spell of fatigue (we’ve all had that scary thought driving our cars thinking how did I get through that roundabout I don’t remember it at all).
I would say I and many others even non railway staff see the justification.
Fitting correct side door operation and an advanced ASDO which mitagates against releasing doors which have stopped short (normal ASDO does not do this) then yes a justification can be seen as the risk has been mitigated. I guarantee you now the money they need to spend to do that it would be cheaper to roster 2 guards to every train.

 

[dk1]

I can see no justification for any increase in wages just for pressing two buttons each time they stop the train. I also see that driver release is by far the best method of operation with a revenue guard, as they can continue a transaction before going to the doors.

So how else do you suggest getting the drivers on side to what is a complete change to their current working agreement & staffing minutes?

 

[Val3ntine]

So how else do you suggest getting the drivers on side to what is a complete change to their current working agreement & staffing minutes?

I think that’s the whole point of this thread, staff should have absolutely no say in regards to changes to their working arrangements and conditions. Put up and shut up or seek other employment if you don’t like it. Especially rail staff might I add

 

[dk1]

I think that’s the whole point of this thread, staff should have absolutely no say in regards to changes to their working arrangements and conditions. Put up and shut up or seek other employment if you don’t like it. Especially rail staff might I add

So race to the bottom was the correct term used earlier in this thread then?

 

[Val3ntine]

So race to the bottom was the correct term used earlier in this thread then?

Basically. Thread needs to be renamed I thinks

 

[ComUtoR]

So how else do you suggest getting the drivers on side to what is a complete change to their current working agreement & staffing minutes?

Have we had the 'sack everybody' and make them reapply for their jobs yet ?

 

[dk1]

Have we had the 'sack everybody' and make them reapply for their jobs yet ?

I'm waiting for that 90 days tosh

 

[dk1]

Basically. Thread needs to be renamed I thinks

Agreed. Will be locked before we know it.

 

[Val3ntine]

Have we had the 'sack everybody' and make them reapply for their jobs yet ?

Not yet but it’s coming

 

[baz962]

Ha Ha! Collection on the wrong day is caused by equipment failure (cancelled train), he works bank holidays, FLAT TIME, and open lids is a H & S issue. Good try!

It was a great ask by comutor. Open lid H & S issue. Are we snowflakes . As an aside , I once had a twig on the top of my black bags in my bin. I hadn't put garden waste in , it was literally one that was on the drive . It was the size of pencil , bin left full.

 

[6Gman]

It was a great ask by comutor. Open lid H & S issue. Are we snowflakes . As an aside , I once had a twig on the top of my black bags in my bin. I hadn't put garden waste in , it was literally one that was on the drive . It was the size of pencil , bin left full.

The problem is where do you draw the line on bins with the lids up? One inch? Three inches? Six inches? Or the people who stack their bins in a way that the lid has to lie along the side of the bin. (Which is a safety and environmental issue)

Just don't overfill your bin!

(We have had wheeliebins for over 20 years. Never been unable to shut the lid.)

 

[baz962]

The problem is where do you draw the line on bins with the lids up? One inch? Three inches? Six inches? Or the people who stack their bins in a way that the lid has to lie along the side of the bin. (Which is a safety and environmental issue)

Just don't overfill your bin!

(We have had wheeliebins for over 20 years. Never been unable to shut the lid.)

Depends , I never couldn't shut the lid when emptied weekly , sometimes cannot now fortnightly. However still shouldn't be a big issue if an inch. Bet if you offered refuse collector's a bonus per bin they wouldn't care suddenly. How do these refuse staff cope when opening and closing their own bin lid , I open and close mine when not too full without specialist training , and in 49 year's I have never so much as scratched a finger.

 

[6Gman]

Depends , I never couldn't shut the lid when emptied weekly , sometimes cannot now fortnightly. However still shouldn't be a big issue if an inch. Bet if you offered refuse collector's a bonus per bin they wouldn't care suddenly. How do these refuse staff cope when opening and closing their own bin lid , I open and close mine when not too full without specialist training , and in 49 year's I have never so much as scratched a finger.

It's not opening and shutting the lid that's the issue (as I understand it - but it's a long time since I was involved in refuse collection ). The issue is loading it onto the refuse vehicle, the lifting and emptying. If it's overfilled stuff can fall onto the road and onto staff and, given the disgusting way some people fill their bins, there's stuff one wouldn't want cascading onto the road or the staff.

 

[furnessvale]

Depends , I never couldn't shut the lid when emptied weekly , sometimes cannot now fortnightly. However still shouldn't be a big issue if an inch. Bet if you offered refuse collector's a bonus per bin they wouldn't care suddenly. How do these refuse staff cope when opening and closing their own bin lid , I open and close mine when not too full without specialist training , and in 49 year's I have never so much as scratched a finger.

And there we have it. Railstaff, and others, who are so precious about the importance of their own jobs and are so touchy when asked "how hard can your job be" feel empowered to talk about a job they nothing about.

How about one task added to a binman's work for no extra pay. Now my son has to act as a banksman for reversing lorries on busy main roads with vehicles and pedestrians cutting all round the moving vehicle. Of course you will say "don't do it then". Quick answer a p45 with no backup from the union. That is the real world away from the railway bubble I referred to earlier.

 

[baz962]

And there we have it. Railstaff, and others, who are so precious about the importance of their own jobs and are so touchy when asked "how hard can your job be" feel empowered to talk about a job they nothing about.

How about one task added to a binman's work for no extra pay. Now my son has to act as a banksman for reversing lorries on busy main roads with vehicles and pedestrians cutting all round the moving vehicle. Of course you will say "don't do it then". Quick answer a p45 with no backup from the union. That is the real world away from the railway bubble I referred to earlier.

I have done it about twenty years ago ta muchly , so did my brother and my old flatmate. Back in the day the bins were even taken out of the bin cupboard , we didn't have to leave them down on the main road. Also not my fault that they are emptied less ( and yes I would pay more tax ). I also know that as most refuse worker's do a job and finish , they cut corners to finish early. I don't in my train.

 

[Val3ntine]

feel empowered to talk about a job they nothing about.

But erm, isn’t this what multiple people on this forum do day in day out regarding roles of railway staff?! Ironic much.

How about one task added to a binman's work for no extra pay. Now my son has to act as a banksman for reversing lorries on busy main roads with vehicles and pedestrians cutting all round the moving vehicle. Of course you will say "don't do it then". Quick answer a p45 with no backup from the union

But erm, isn’t the same expected from railway staff? More tasks added on to one’s work load and changes to working conditions with no extra pay and no back up from unions ?

 

[6Gman]

And there we have it. Railstaff, and others, who are so precious about the importance of their own jobs and are so touchy when asked "how hard can your job be" feel empowered to talk about a job they nothing about.

How about one task added to a binman's work for no extra pay. Now my son has to act as a banksman for reversing lorries on busy main roads with vehicles and pedestrians cutting all round the moving vehicle. Of course you will say "don't do it then". Quick answer a p45 with no backup from the union. That is the real world away from the railway bubble I referred to earlier.

I'm sure it varies from local authority to local authority, and may have also changed over time, but when I was involved in refuse collection (on the "management" side) changes to arrangements were mutually agreed with the union reps. So, for example, when bank holiday working was agreed by the staff side the management side conceded early finishes under certain conditions.

Both sides were content.

Incidentally, as a (former) "boss" and as a (current) customer I have to say our bin crews are excellent.

 

[furnessvale]

I have done it about twenty years ago ta muchly , so did my brother and my old flatmate. Back in the day the bins were even taken out of the bin cupboard , we didn't have to leave them down on the main road. Also not my fault that they are emptied less ( and yes I would pay more tax ). I also know that as most refuse worker's do a job and finish , they cut corners to finish early. I don't in my train.

20 years ago maybe. Now a 4 day week has been converted into a 5 day week. Same hours but split over 5 days.
Job and finish has gone. Rounds that finish early are expected to go and assist other rounds that are struggling. And just to cap it all, pay has been cut by£2000pa to bring them DOWN to equal pay with dinnerladies.

So far as traincrew are concerned, has the "unofficial" roster now gone where job swaps could get you away early? When I worked on the railway (more than 20 years ago) job swapping and unofficial covering was so rife you had a job to remember who was where!