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Northern strike action suspended

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yorksrob

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Well, I didn't word that too succinctly.

What I meant was Northern haven't obviously changed their position, there is, and until the end of the franchise always was going to be a second member of staff on every train.

All jobs were guaranteed, with no cuts in pay.

And yet they've lost a great deal of money and got Northern to change absolutely jack.

I think the second person on every train was confirmed by TfN a few months ago, so not obvious (to me as a non industry person at any rate) .

Also, there's the safety critical aspect which wasn't established.

Personally, I hope the RMT agree to driver open, so I no longer have to wait in the rain while the conductor's selling a ticket !
 

Andrew Nelson

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Because they would of had zero control over what was going to happen. The role could of been withdrawn, and replaced with lower paid contracted staff.
Despite them being told that it wasn't?

I think the second person on every train was confirmed by TfN a few months ago, so not obvious (to me as a non industry person at any rate) .

Also, there's the safety critical aspect which wasn't established.

Personally, I hope the RMT agree to driver open, so I no longer have to wait in the rain while the conductor's selling a ticket !

Spot on.
 
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yorksrob

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I saw this a long time ago on Northern's website.

Well that's the issue. Both the RMT had their positions of what they wanted, but Jo public never had access to what those conversations were, so we get a bit of a spun vetsion of what both sides were saying.

I saw this a long time ago on Northern's website.

Well that's the issue. Both the RMT had their positions of what they wanted, but Jo public never had access to what those conversations were, so we get a bit of a spun vetsion of what both sides were saying.

For me as I understand it (being an outsider) Northern wanted a second person on most trains, not guaranteed in disruption, whereas the RMT wanted the second person on all trains.
 
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craigybagel

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For me as I understand it (being an outsider) Northern wanted a second person on most trains, not guaranteed in disruption, whereas the RMT wanted the second person on all trains.

That is how I understand it as well. And what has changed is that Northern have agreed to what RMT wanted - hence RMT suspending industrial action.
 

Andrew Nelson

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But none of this had been confirmed until a few days ago, hence the dispute.

Northern Rail said it well over two years ago.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/northern-offers-reassurance-to-rmt-over-dco

Well that's the issue. Both the RMT had their positions of what they wanted, but Jo public never had access to what those conversations were, so we get a bit of a spun vetsion of what both sides were saying.
No, it was in the public domain years ago.

That is how I understand it as well. And what has changed is that Northern have agreed to what RMT wanted - hence RMT suspending industrial action.

Wrong:

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/northern-offers-reassurance-to-rmt-over-dco
 
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Anvil1984

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Erm did you actually read the article it states at the bottom

"Trains will only operate without a second member of staff on board where it can be demonstrated that passengers will still be able to purchase a ticket at the station or on-board the train, that they will still have access to appropriate information about the service and that they will feel no less safe and secure"


Not the guarantee you are alluding to
 

Andrew Nelson

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Erm did you actually read the article it states at the bottom

"Trains will only operate without a second member of staff on board where it can be demonstrated that passengers will still be able to purchase a ticket at the station or on-board the train, that they will still have access to appropriate information about the service and that they will feel no less safe and secure"


Not the guarantee you are alluding to

The RMT union has received confirmation from Northern that the company is willing to guarantee the union a second staff member on board its trains.

What part of that is unclear?
 

Anvil1984

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Read past the first paragraph, the RMT quote is

“Ultimately our aim will be to receive a guarantee that there will be a second safety critical member of staff on board their trains.”

Its not the same as actually receiving it
 

Tomnick

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The RMT union has received confirmation from Northern that the company is willing to guarantee the union a second staff member on board its trains.

What part of that is unclear?
It’s unclear because it’s contradicted by that passage at the bottom, and also by more recent correspondence from Northern’s MD stating that they absolutely could not guarantee a second member of staff on every train.
 

Eccles1983

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I think the second person on every train was confirmed by TfN a few months ago, so not obvious (to me as a non industry person at any rate) .

Also, there's the safety critical aspect which wasn't established.

Personally, I hope the RMT agree to driver open, so I no longer have to wait in the rain while the conductor's selling a ticket !


It's not a RMT decision in effect.

They can agree all they want. Unless I am getting a push in pay, and stop boards at every station then I won't agree to it.
 

scrapy

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Exactly, the ITT stipulated the second person had to be a franchise employee.
The ITT also stipulated that the new gatelines had to be manned by franchise employees, except they're not and the term franchise employee apparently means franchise employee or agency staff brought in by the franchisee.
 

PomWombat

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Given that this strike was called before any talks or negotiations happened, it is always possible that the outcome of the talks that will now happen would have been the same as if the talks happened without the strike.

It seems clear to me that the RMT has won something with the strike, which is an improvement in the guarantee they have been given before they enter the talks: that the already-guaranteed 2nd person would be a conductor.

A lot of the talk on here was that, for a widespread rural operator, the step to make the guaranteed second staff member into a guaranteed safety-critical guard was a no-brainer... so what are the chances that sensible talks would have reached the same conclusion?

We'll never know the answer, but it has to leave a nagging doubt as to whether it was worth 2 months of pay.
 

Carlisle

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The ITT also stipulated that the new gatelines had to be manned by franchise employees, except they're not and the term franchise employee apparently means franchise employee or agency staff brought in by the franchisee.
Ok thanks for clearing that one up, sounds slightly similar to the TPE uniformed catering staff that actually work for Rail Gourmet
 
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craigybagel

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Given that this strike was called before any talks or negotiations happened, it is always possible that the outcome of the talks that will now happen would have been the same as if the talks happened without the strike.

It seems clear to me that the RMT has won something with the strike, which is an improvement in the guarantee they have been given before they enter the talks: that the already-guaranteed 2nd person would be a conductor.

A lot of the talk on here was that, for a widespread rural operator, the step to make the guaranteed second staff member into a guaranteed safety-critical guard was a no-brainer... so what are the chances that sensible talks would have reached the same conclusion?

We'll never know the answer, but it has to leave a nagging doubt as to whether it was worth 2 months of pay.

It's an interesting question, and it's true that we'll never know the answer.

I would suggest though that the RMT didn't have much choice. By standing their ground, they've made it very difficult for DOO to be extended anywhere else. They can point to Northern, to Anglia and to Merseyrail and say "look, we can be reasonable and negotiate, but we won't accept an extension of DOO". This should strengthen their hands in the negotiations with SWT, and any other franchise where DOO becomes an issue in the future.

On the other hand - if they'd not fought here, but meekly accepted it as so many suggested, they'd not have a leg to stand in at any other franchise in the future.
 

yorksrob

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It's not a RMT decision in effect.

They can agree all they want. Unless I am getting a push in pay, and stop boards at every station then I won't agree to it.

Fair doos. It just makes me annoyed that the powers that be, precipitated a highly damaging industrial dispute two years before they would have had to have agreed it with the drivers anyway.
 

Eccles1983

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Fair doos. It just makes me annoyed that the powers that be, precipitated a highly damaging industrial dispute two years before they would have had to have agreed it with the drivers anyway.


I think what had happened is this.

Arriva willingly took it on knowing they would have a scrap over it with dft backing, but expecting ASLEF to play ball.

Behind the scenes informal chats have taken place and ASLEF has refused point blank to get involved.

Arriva after May, and the damaging strikes and the fact that the new units they hoped to run DOO don't actually work in DOO mode have gone back to the DfT with an ultimatum of drop the DOO or we walk.

DfT and government being in no fit state to see another franchise go down the pan has wilted.

DfT have kicked it down the road until 2025 where a new company will come in and the ITT will specify that all units must be doo comparable.

Big scrap then.
 

Bletchleyite

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Erm did you actually read the article it states at the bottom

"Trains will only operate without a second member of staff on board where it can be demonstrated that passengers will still be able to purchase a ticket at the station or on-board the train, that they will still have access to appropriate information about the service and that they will feel no less safe and secure"


Not the guarantee you are alluding to

Indeed. That has now effectively changed to "the train will be cancelled if the second member of staff is not present", and that is why they have suspended the strike.

The above would have certainly allowed for DOO without OBS (perhaps with a few patrolling rent-a-thugs of an evening) on something like the Hadfield line. So far as I see it, this, unless Metrolinked, is now out of the question.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would suggest though that the RMT didn't have much choice. By standing their ground, they've made it very difficult for DOO to be extended anywhere else. They can point to Northern, to Anglia and to Merseyrail and say "look, we can be reasonable and negotiate, but we won't accept an extension of DOO". This should strengthen their hands in the negotiations with SWT, and any other franchise where DOO becomes an issue in the future.

I think Merseyrail pretty much already did that, because the case for DOO on Merseyrail is far, far stronger than the case for it on LU or any South East commuter service simply because the service will be fully accessible without assistance at every station where the person can get onto the platform. However the win for the union at Northern has reinforced this, and I think that indeed any further attempts at DOO where there isn't at least an OBS or the train is cancelled are totally dead for a good many years into the future.
 

craigybagel

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I think Merseyrail pretty much already did that, because the case for DOO on Merseyrail is far, far stronger than the case for it on LU or any South East commuter service simply because the service will be fully accessible without assistance at every station where the person can get onto the platform. However the win for the union at Northern has reinforced this, and I think that indeed any further attempts at DOO where there isn't at least an OBS or the train is cancelled are totally dead for a good many years into the future.

True - but at the time the strikes started RMT didn't know how things at Merseyrail would turn out.
 

yorksrob

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I think what had happened is this.

Arriva willingly took it on knowing they would have a scrap over it with dft backing, but expecting ASLEF to play ball.

Behind the scenes informal chats have taken place and ASLEF has refused point blank to get involved.

Arriva after May, and the damaging strikes and the fact that the new units they hoped to run DOO don't actually work in DOO mode have gone back to the DfT with an ultimatum of drop the DOO or we walk.

DfT and government being in no fit state to see another franchise go down the pan has wilted.

DfT have kicked it down the road until 2025 where a new company will come in and the ITT will specify that all units must be doo comparable.

Big scrap then.

As a Northern passenger, I look forward to getting screwed over then as well.
 

Andrew Nelson

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Given that this strike was called before any talks or negotiations happened, it is always possible that the outcome of the talks that will now happen would have been the same as if the talks happened without the strike.

It seems clear to me that the RMT has won something with the strike, which is an improvement in the guarantee they have been given before they enter the talks: that the already-guaranteed 2nd person would be a conductor.

A lot of the talk on here was that, for a widespread rural operator, the step to make the guaranteed second staff member into a guaranteed safety-critical guard was a no-brainer... so what are the chances that sensible talks would have reached the same conclusion?

We'll never know the answer, but it has to leave a nagging doubt as to whether it was worth 2 months of pay.

Spot on.
 

muz379

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It's not a RMT decision in effect.

They can agree all they want. Unless I am getting a push in pay, and stop boards at every station then I won't agree to it.
Of course you are assuming that you will be given the choice to indicate your preference to agree to it or not with a vote . ASLEF dont have to give you a vote on it .
 

Eccles1983

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Of course you are assuming that you will be given the choice to indicate your preference to agree to it or not with a vote . ASLEF dont have to give you a vote on it .

Yes the would.

It's a change to my working conditions, with increased productivity. There would be uproar if they did try to impose it without a vote as it contravenes DRI which would require amendment which was voted on last time.

It's not in my contract, or job description to open doors on any unit except ad-hoc ECS moves.
 
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