Northern Temporary Timetable from 4th June

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by _toommm_, 1 Jun 2018.

  1. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    so as must of us are well aware Northern have been struggling with lack of drivers and guards - as such, an emergency timetable will be in place as of Monday.

    https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

    Thoughts and feelings guys? At least it’s a short term fix hopefully, but only time will tell as to how well it works.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 2 Jun 2018
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  3. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    Are they still going to be penalised for cancelling those trains? Or are they effectively getting away with reducing their services by 6% below the agreed offer without sanction?

    And what compensation are they offering customers? If they are giving free travel for the month to apologise, then it's an acceptable interim arrangement...
     
  4. matacaster

    matacaster Member

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    Whilst 6% of services removed, statistically, it looks like 100% of Windermere trains! I am also surprised that there is now a gap of NINE hours between morning and evening northern Huddersfield - Manchester trains. I do feel that Northern and TPE are bearing the brunt of what is mainly a gigantic NR cock-up where heads should have rolled. Having been on the Victoria, Piccadilly, Airport journey this weekend, the it would appear that most Oxford Road and Deansgate stops should be skipped as the Ordsall Curve trains progress is glacial on this section - Surely the timetable planners should have foreseen this???

    Slightly off topic, but I can't help but think that driver training could be done using really advanced simulators similar to those used to train airline and military pilots. These could be made to give the look and feel of all the locations and surroundings etc, incluisng effect of greasy rails, gradients, short platforms etr. This would significantly reduce the amount of time required for driver training and re-certification.
     
  5. LWB

    LWB Member

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    They are actually claiming that they have 1600 drivers (180more than at start of franchise) and this is not the problem
     
  6. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    Rather a lack of drivers trained over the routes due to the NR electrification fails.
     
  7. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    And I'm the King of Siam..
     
  8. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    They say it's not a problem under normal circumstances. What they don't say is whether normal circumstances includes a RDW agreement... And there certainly should be more drivers than at the start of the franchise, the franchise agreement includes various service increases. All in all Northern is spinning well and possibly getting away with it among some parts of the generally ill-informed media. Also of note is that the BBC's Look North has repeatedly asked both Minister Grayling and Northern to face the cameras: both have so far refused.
     
  9. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    When electrification of Manchester to Preston via Bolton is complete I can't see that routes themselves will be greatly different from what they are now. More services will be operated by EMUs, but I imagine there will now be plenty of drivers who are trained to drive 319s, 323s, or both, and as for route knowledge who will need to know Manchester - Blackpool who doesn't know it now?
    Manchester to Preston is the only section of route in the North West which was expected to be electrified by now, but isn't.
     
  10. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    Could’ve swore I read on here that the Blackpool route knowledge had expired due to delays in handing back the line, thus a shortage of drivers as they’re having to be took off driving to re learn the route?
     
  11. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    And how many drivers are being trained on Preston - Blackpool at any one time? Nowhere near the number who would be required to staff the 200 or so journeys cancelled some days, I'm sure.
     
  12. thejuggler

    thejuggler Member

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    Northern having enough drivers is irrelevant if they can't drive the routes. If this is found to be the case whoever authorised that press response should be sacked.

    Its like BA saying they have more than enough pilots, without mentioning they only have private licences.
     
  13. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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  14. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    That's because the main service is now provided by TPE.
     
  15. Andyh82

    Andyh82 Member

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    The fact they need training on the routes is exactly what the press release says!
     
  16. scrapy

    scrapy Member

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    A pity the reductions to Kirkby and Ormskirk came at the same time as the Liverpool blockade. Those services were very busy during the similar works last year. Would it not have made more sense to cancel one of the hourly Southport's from Wigan?
     
  17. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    As I said on another thread, by going this kind of approach the area that shout loudest and has the most sway gets the attention. Elsewhere suffers. Liverpool region had the lowest capacity increase out of all the major regions, but still gets cutbacks anyway. As for Windemere...

    I see no one has answered my questions above about whether Northern are being penalised for this? Or whether they are effectively getting to reduce their promised offer by 6%.

    It would not surprise me if some of these services never re-appeared but were permanently removed under the guise of providing timetable "resilience". It's happened before (when massive numbers of cross country services were cut - again, the victims where those whose voices were quieter than the ones being protectionist).
     
  18. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    I doubt it's got that far yet, and it's not that simple.
    You can see from the Grayling letter that he holds Network Rail primarily responsible for the failure to deliver a workable timetable.
    And your 6% has to be set against repeated delays in completing electrification, with equally late notification of those delays.
    Lostock-Wigan and Oxenholme-Windermere electrification has also vanished into thin air, but the promised replacement 769s to work them haven't arrived either.
     
  19. Camden

    Camden Established Member

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    But if the cancellations were going on before the timetable change, and the rest day working agreement has ended, Network Rail can't be responsible...

    Who Northern end up recovering any compensation they have to pay out from is of no relevance or interest to the passengers.

    And as taxpayers and farepayers, they also deserve to know that Northern aren't being excused for offering a reduced service. You can be certain that many commuters are not being excused by their bosses for lateness/absence, simply because it's Northern's fault.
     
  20. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    Except that RDW would have been used to cover route learning to Blackpool, which was delayed by a couple of months by....

    OT: I don't think anyone has linked the substantial increase in cancellations this past week to it's being half term when presumably the maximum number of drivers have booked annual leave?
     
  21. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    The Kirkby-Wigan section has been bustituted, the Wigan-Rochdale section hasn't. The reduction is every 3rd service. The Windermere line services are completely bustituted, and it looks like the offpeak Manchester Airport-Blackpool services have been merged with Bolton-Victoria services, the Blackpools going via Bolton with some starting short at Buckshaw Parkway
     
  22. 323235

    323235 Established Member

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    The Colne line is downgraded to a train every 3 hours at certain times of the day.
     
  23. 158756

    158756 Member

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    The RRB is incredibly slow with all the diversions it has to make to stations as well. Assuming the Preston-Leeds train actually runs it'll be much faster to get off the bus at Accrington and wait for the train, even when the connection is 35 minutes. You might even be able to do Colne -Preston quicker by service buses, certainly from Burnley and Blackburn you can. The RRB timetable is actually optimistic as well.
     
  24. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Not something you normally see, was in Wigan this afternoon and passed by a black Blackpool Transport Palladium double decker operating a Blackpool-Manchester Victoria rail replacement service.
     
  25. 323235

    323235 Established Member

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    That has been happening for a while, I've seen them in Manchester, Wigan , Preston since the Blackpool/Bolton work started.

    Must be a good extra income for Blackpool transport.
     
  26. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Sending their few luxury buses on rail replacement services does seem a little odd though, the mileage accumulation for a start is devaluing their investment in luxury features.
     
  27. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Luxury buses are cheaper to operate than coaches though and it might be that using modern double deckers on a longer rail replacement route offers a significant fuel saving over using older buses.
     
  28. Llama

    Llama Member

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    That assumes that all 1600 drivers were relatively fully trained in what they had to do before this shambles took off. That wasn't the case. At just one large depot the outstanding training days for drivers were numbered in the thousands well before Blackpool delays were even imagined.
     
  29. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I have seen Blackpool Transport running Wigan to Manchester Vic stopping services via Atherton or via Bolton on more than one occasion now.

    I am not aware of any Blackpool to Manchester replacement buses that Watcher Zero mentions though.
     
  30. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Cancelling the Windermere service for several weeks is simply unacceptable and surely a franchise breach. Northern have consistently shown since taking this route over from TPE that they have little interest in it and it is always the first to fall whenever there are wider service issues.
     
  31. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    There's a long list of franchise breaches, some Northern have to accept more blame for than others.

    The fact that Windermere was an ex-TPE route and unlike Barrow and Blackpool it only saw TPE services probably means since the start of the franchise they've had far fewer drivers who signed the route.
     

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