Northern Temporary Timetable from 4th June

[pemma]

There's still some last services showing as cancelled or part cancelled despite the emergency timetable.

 

[DarloRich]

Rather a lack of drivers trained over the routes due to the NR electrification fails.

That isnt the sole reason for the issues but lets not bother with the full picture eh? I can think of 3 or 4 other issues that have had an impact.

When electrification of Manchester to Preston via Bolton is complete I can't see that routes themselves will be greatly different from what they are now. More services will be operated by EMUs, but I imagine there will now be plenty of drivers who are trained to drive 319s, 323s, or both, and as for route knowledge who will need to know Manchester - Blackpool who doesn't know it now?
Manchester to Preston is the only section of route in the North West which was expected to be electrified by now, but isn't.

Surely more to do with the time the line was closed and the lapsing of competency that causes?

 

[TUC]

There's a long list of franchise breaches, some Northern have to accept more blame for than others.

The fact that Windermere was an ex-TPE route and unlike Barrow and Blackpool it only saw TPE services probably means since the start of the franchise they've had far fewer drivers who signed the route.

Northern have had more than enough time to fix that. Again it comes down to basic operational planning.

 

[Llama]

The start of the franchise was more than two years ago, there has been plenty of time to train any Barrow drivers on Windermere, and all Barrow and Blackpool ex-TPE drivers were TUPEed across to Northern on 1/4/16.

Plenty of the training that Northern are blaming the shambolic operations of today on was foreseen well before this year (such as the need for faster paths north of Preston prohibiting 75mph units, meaning ex-TPE Blackpool and Barrow drivers being trained on 158s) and would have to have been done regardless of the delays to the Bolton-Euxton Jn electrification, and Northern had already had new services such as Calder Valley to Man Airport and Chester via Bank Quay postponed.

Their public statements don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. There has been arrogance in the company refusing to publish cancellations earlier than the actual scheduled departure time of the train rather than at the time they know, their depot shift managers know the night before when they receive the final roster, and even the Northern Fail app knows - most Northern staff have downloaded it!

 

[Howardh]

Out of the next 11 services shown from Bolton at 1206;
3 are so far on time
6 are late from 4 to 23 mins
2 are cancelled.
Unsure if the cancelled trains have a substitute bus.

 

[Fisherman80]

Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere else.......but I do not understand the reason for completely suspending the Oxenholme-Windermere service.

I understand that a few trains do run beyond the branch line to and from Lancaster and beyond but surely Northern could have just run a shuttle service between Oxenholme and Windermere only.

All it would take would be one unit shuttling back and forth on the branch all day.

 

[Bovverboy]

With just a one-train shuttle, you would still need to staff it, and the journeys extended to/from Lancaster and beyond provide a useful means of getting staff to the branch. There are no crews based at Windermere, they come from Barrow and/or Blackpool (I think). So running a shuttle wouldn't be much cheaper than retaining the full service.
I think the reason for the Windermere branch being targeted for complete suspension is that, with only three intermediate stations, and none particularly far off the direct route, it's a relatively easy line to bus substitute.

 

[geoffk]

Today's Manchester Evening News says that Northern have now offered drivers a new rest day working agreement. A shame it's taken so long.

 

[Puffing Devil]

With just a one-train shuttle, you would still need to staff it, and the journeys extended to/from Lancaster and beyond provide a useful means of getting staff to the branch. There are no crews based at Windermere, they come from Barrow and/or Blackpool (I think). So running a shuttle wouldn't be much cheaper than retaining the full service.
I think the reason for the Windermere branch being targeted for complete suspension is that, with only three intermediate stations, and none particularly far off the direct route, it's a relatively easy line to bus substitute.

This isn't about "cheap", it's a public service obligation.

A single unit and crew brought in by taxi would be better PR than busses.

 

[Bovverboy]

With just a one-train shuttle, you would still need to staff it, and the journeys extended to/from Lancaster and beyond provide a useful means of getting staff to the branch. There are no crews based at Windermere, they come from Barrow and/or Blackpool (I think). So running a shuttle wouldn't be much cheaper than retaining the full service.
I think the reason for the Windermere branch being targeted for complete suspension is that, with only three intermediate stations, and none particularly far off the direct route, it's a relatively easy line to bus substitute.

This isn't about "cheap", it's a public service obligation.

A single unit and crew brought in by taxi would be better PR than busses.

But my point was that running a Windermere to Oxenholme shuttle wouldn't achieve anything! The saving involved in running an isolated shuttle compared with running the shuttle plus the extensions to Lancaster, Preston, or wherever, would be so small as to be not worthwhile!

Anyway, seeing as you're so besotted with this isolated shuttle idea, perhaps you would like to tell me:
1) where you think the unit used should be stabled overnight;
2) where you think it should be fuelled/maintained;
3) what routes you think should see a further reduction in service (compared to the present already reduced service) in order to provide the crews to work the Windermere to Oxenholme shuttles.

P.S. I'm not saying that I necessarily think that complete suspension of the Lakes Line was a good idea.

 

[Spartacus]

Today's Manchester Evening News says that Northern have now offered drivers a new rest day working agreement. A shame it's taken so long.

Compared to how long it toon on Thameslink/GTR I'm amazed it's happened so quickly.

 

[philthetube]

Sending their few luxury buses on rail replacement services does seem a little odd though, the mileage accumulation for a start is devaluing their investment in luxury features.

They have probably made enough for another fleet by now

 

[WatcherZero]

Today's Manchester Evening News says that Northern have now offered drivers a new rest day working agreement. A shame it's taken so long.

Neither the Aslef union nor the company wanted it, neither side offered to renew the previous agreement to prevent it lapsing. Northern had apparently made two offers in May but Aslef wasnt interested. Its temporary renewal has been forced by circumstance and with the drivers getting 125% overtime rate and minimum 9 hours pay for working a shift they are doing very well out of it.

 

[philthetube]

The Colne line is downgraded to a train every 3 hours at certain times of the day.

The RRB is incredibly slow with all the diversions it has to make to stations as well. Assuming the Preston-Leeds train actually runs it'll be much faster to get off the bus at Accrington and wait for the train, even when the connection is 35 minutes. You might even be able to do Colne -Preston quicker by service buses, certainly from Burnley and Blackburn you can. The RRB timetable is actually optimistic as well.

The situation from Colne, Nelson and brierfield would be greatly improved if ticket acceptance could be arranged on local buses to Burnley Manchester Road, or if the RRB coul call at Manchester road, or if the Calder valley line services could stop at Rosegrove, and of the three would be a big improvement on what there is now.

 

[323235]

In recent times i've asked the Rail Replacement Minibus to stop at Manchester Road, so everyone could get on the next train.

 

[Tractor37]

drivers getting 125% overtime rate and minimum 9 hours pay

It's actually time and a half (not 125%) for a minimum of 9.5 hours but there are very very few jobs that are less than 9.5 hours.

 

[jizzer]

It's actually time and a half (not 125%) for a minimum of 9.5 hours but there are very very few jobs that are less than 9.5 hours.

Well considering that the average day lengthy is 8:45 hours and the maximum day length is 10 hours. I think you'll find that the vast majority of jobs are less than 9.5 hrs.

 

[Tractor37]

Well considering that the average day lengthy is 8:45 hours and the maximum day length is 10 hours. I think you'll find that the vast majority of jobs are less than 9.5 hrs.

My roster must be wrong then!

 

[jizzer]

My roster must be wrong then!

Your roster isn't wrong........,just your perception

 

[Tractor37]

Your roster isn't wrong........,just your perception

Not at all.

 

[randyrippley]

Sending their few luxury buses on rail replacement services does seem a little odd though, the mileage accumulation for a start is devaluing their investment in luxury features.

Few? They've got about thirty of them, and the RRB contract pretty much underwrote the purchase!

 

[DarloRich]

But my point was that running a Windermere to Oxenholme shuttle wouldn't achieve anything! The saving involved in running an isolated shuttle compared with running the shuttle plus the extensions to Lancaster, Preston, or wherever, would be so small as to be not worthwhile!

Don't underestimate the PR angle.

 

[Tringonometry]

My roster must be wrong then!

You need to transfer to a different depot.

 

[pdeaves]

I see no one has answered my questions above about whether Northern are being penalised for this? Or whether they are effectively getting to reduce their promised offer by 6%.

I would expect that, in the time before the timetable change (or 20 May at the latest) to the announcement of reduced service, Northern were at the DfT negotiating 'something'. There may well be an extra unit ordered, or service run somewhere, or something like that, coming up in the future as recompense.

 

[Bornin1980s]

How are services between Leeds and Bradford?

 

[jizzer]

It's actually time and a half (not 125%) for a minimum of 9.5 hours but there are very very few jobs that are less than 9.5 hours.

Never one to let a sweeping generalisation go unchallenged.

I asked a contact at a large Northern depot to check how many driver diagrams were over 9hrs 30 mins and how many are under 9hrs 30 mins.
And the results are in.

Diagrams over 9hrs 30 mins ................ 3 diagrams
Diagrams under 9hrs 30 mins ..............176 diagrams.

This is Monday to Friday diagrams (93) and Saturday diagrams (86) which are the only ones that can be worked on a rest day. Even Sunday diagrams (46) there was only 1 diagrams longer than 9hrs 30 mins.

What they do have is roughly 90% of spare turns over 9hrs 30 mins.
This is due to the vast majority of the diagrams being less than the average day length which is 8hr 45mins.

When linking work, all the diagrams lengths are added up and the amount of hours left between how many a driver should work in a year are then divided by the number of spare turns and that will give you the average spare turn length. Most spare turns were 9hr 50 mins with a few 8 hr ones thrown in for good measure.
This is not too bad for the company because they will pay out next to nothing in rostered overtime but not the best use of resources as most will be moved to a job less than their day length. Also if kept spare they can usually go home 1 or 2 hrs before their day is up if no work needs covering.

So as to the 'very very few jobs are less the 9.5 hrs' it must have been a typo error!!

 

[northernchris]

How are services between Leeds and Bradford?

On both the Airedale and Calder Valley routes there is no emergency timetable in place and punctuality isn't much worse than it was before the timetable change - most delays seem to be accumulated outside Leeds station awaiting platform

 

[geoffk]

Sorry if this is on the wrong thread, but Northern stopping trains from Manchester to Crewe are still missing out Manchester Airport, reason given "high track temperatures". What does this even mean, and how are folks arriving at the airport supposed to get to Wilmslow or Crewe? Seven trains in a row are scheduled to do this today - it's described as "minor disruption"! It's been going on for weeks and trains just seem to wait time at Styal! Trains from Crewe are following the normal route.

 

[pemma]

Sorry if this is on the wrong thread, but Northern stopping trains from Manchester to Crewe are still missing out Manchester Airport, reason given "high track temperatures". What does this even mean, and how are folks arriving at the airport supposed to get to Wilmslow or Crewe? Seven trains in a row are scheduled to do this today - it's described as "minor disruption"! It's been going on for weeks and trains just seem to wait time at Styal! Trains from Crewe are following the normal route.

It probably means there's an issue with the track meaning services can't depart Manchester Airport for Wilmslow. If you've got a Twitter account send Northern a tweet and ask what passengers going from Manchester Airport to Wilmslow are supposed to do. Only possible way I can think of .is to go via Piccadilly which would require a relaxation in ticket validity.

 

[geoffk]

It probably means there's an issue with the track meaning services can't depart Manchester Airport for Wilmslow. If you've got a Twitter account send Northern a tweet and ask what passengers going from Manchester Airport to Wilmslow are supposed to do. Only possible way I can think of is to go via Piccadilly which would require a relaxation in ticket validity.

Yes, although changing at Heald Green would be OK if you know which train to catch. Trains to Crewe ran normally until the 12.05 ex MIA, then the next one shown on RTT is the 20.03 to Wilmslow!