Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[m79900]

Lot 2: - MMU – required for passenger service 2030-31 with an estimated requirement of 26 x 3-vehicle units and 84 x 4-vehicle units.

Probably a daft question, but what's an MMU?

 

[Energy]

Probably a daft question, but what's an MMU?

Multimode unit - probably diesel/battery/25kv.

The tender is set up so that Northern can order MMUs as just battery/25kv, but to bid for the lot, suppliers have to provide a diesel option.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Probably a daft question, but what's an MMU?

I believe it stands for Modular Multiple Unit in this case - i.e. a MU with interchangeable power sources.
This may be batteries, hydrogen fuel cells, diesel generator sets, OHLE, 3rd Rail etc....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there the slightest chance that Northern (SGBR by then) will place a single large call-off order with a single manufacturer for the variety of options they appear to need?
I doubt there is the technical, bidding and financial commitment from manufacturers to offer multiple call-off options for Northern to pick and choose from.
It will surely come down to some more specific configurations which make sense for both manufacturer and Northern (and maybe other TOCs).
Picking one supplier will have its problems long-term as well.

 

[ENC Rail]

It would probably make sense for Northern to order more 331s and a bi-mode version of the 195s than something completely different? The design for the units is already made and surely driver training wouldn't take as long? Just a suggestion!

 

[Snow1964]

Is there the slightest chance that Northern (SGBR by then) will place a single large call-off order with a single manufacturer for the variety of options they appear to need?
I doubt there is the technical, bidding and financial commitment from manufacturers to offer multiple call-off options for Northern to pick and choose from.
It will surely come down to some more specific configurations which make sense for both manufacturer and Northern (and maybe other TOCs).
Picking one supplier will have its problems long-term as well.

It's a framework contract, so could be called off in batches. Note they refer to initial batches, so in theory could be more under the 180 month (15 year) framework drawdown period. Could potentially end up with 1000-2000 vehicles.

Unclear if all 3 lots will go to same manufacturer, could be any combination eg one gets lots 1&3, two gets lot 2

For the modular MMU could potentially be first batch with diesel bimode, second batch battery etc. Could evolve over the 8 years depending on demand and progress with further electrification.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Personally I'm hoping for Stadler, but we'll see!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I'm hoping for Stadler, but we'll see!

If the vehicle numbers are right Stadlers will be too short. I suspect 24m vehicles.

Low floor I am hoping for though. Really should be legally mandatory.

 

[Trainbike46]

If the vehicle numbers are right Stadlers will be too short. I suspect 24m vehicles.

Low floor I am hoping for though. Really should be legally mandatory.

Then again, stadler has a lot of experience with modular multiple unit concepts, so who knows.

Agreed, whoever wins the new units need to have level-boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then again, stadler has a lot of experience with modular multiple unit concepts, so who knows.

True. They have done 26m traditional units, the Scandinavian sleeper units are that.

 

[SimplyLlama]

It would probably make sense for Northern to order more 331s and a bi-mode version of the 195s than something completely different? The design for the units is already made and surely driver training wouldn't take as long? Just a suggestion!

I seem to remember hearing that they had looked into this and it not being a viable option? Although I couldn’t quote you a source for that and things may well have changed since that was a few years ago.

 

[Trainbike46]

I seem to remember hearing that they had looked into this and it not being a viable option? Although I couldn’t quote you a source for that and things may well have changed since that was a few years ago.

If memory serves, it was deemed to expensive by those in charge.

 

[ENC Rail]

I seem to remember hearing that they had looked into this and it not being a viable option? Although I couldn’t quote you a source for that and things may well have changed since that was a few years ago.

Fair enough, I haven't looked into anything, I just thought it would be a way to get the new trains into service quicker! If Northern don't go with CAF there should be more variety, assuming Northern keep the 195s/331s.

 

[brad465]

Is this an early notice to say that tomorrow's budget is funding the project?

 

[Stephen42]

Is this an early notice to say that tomorrow's budget is funding the project?

Unlikely, the contract award date remains in 2026. It's going to go under RDEL and probably won't be much resource expenditure in a single year. At most a reference to bumping up the order quantities, continuing to invest in railways or some such. It seems so in the margins I'd be surprised if it gets mentioned specifically at all.

Comparing to the Southeastern entry, the equivalent of the 29th November date is when they issued the Invitation to Negotiate to shortlisted suppliers. They may have published an update with a months notice so they can say anyone could have objected to change in requirements/contract value or the update was going out anyway with best practice to reflect latest information in each contract. It's also possible they plan to restart the procurement again, but that would likely delay the award.

 

[Energy]

If memory serves, it was deemed too expensive by those in charge.

25kV + diesel isn’t available on the 331/195 bodyshell. The bimodes would have been diesel/battery with the battery only being charged off the diesel engine.

Given the lack of 25kV the high price was poor value for money.

 

[Nottingham59]

Is there any minimum volume guaranteed to be purchased under this contract? (Assuming the product meets the required specification, of course)

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any minimum volume guaranteed to be purchased under this contract? (Assuming the product meets the required specification, of course)

No,
but the bidder could set a minimum that it will offer (not worth trouble and cost of design and setting up production line below certain quantity), or they could price it with tiers depending on volumes (bigger quantity gets lower unit price) etc. No one is forced to bid.

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting news from Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe (main announcement was regarding the battery 802 results), but it included.

But company executives have now revealed that there are a “myriad of options” being explored to provide the work needed to secure the plant’s future.

“The second one is in procurement competitions and bidding for new rolling stock and can we look at new battery trains as part of those proposals. There are currently between 750 and 1,000 trains that we currently operate in the UK. So the opportunity there is pretty big.”

Asked about discussions with the Government on new orders, he added: “It’s been really positive. You’ll have seen the sort of support we got in relation to the factory and we’ve had people here who are really positive about what we do, they understand this factory very, very well. So there’s ongoing conversations with Government, private and public in terms of what this might look like.”

He added: “There are a lot of very good conversations that we’re having, as I’ve said, with Government and the private sector and we’re hopeful that will come to something that is positive for everyone involved. I’m pleased with that in terms of what we’ve got and the conversations we’re having.”

Doesn't mean they will get the Northern tender, but suggests discussions are fairly active regarding getting part of the tender

Hitachi sounds positive note about future of County Durham train factory

The manufacturer said talks with Government continue as it announced trials of a battery technology which it says can be retrofitted to diesel trains

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

 

[Pacco]

In a voyager thread I did the comparison at the bottom of this message. Doing a similar thing comparing it with a 195 gives this:

Class	seats	length	seats m^-1
Class 195/0 (2-car)	108	48 metres	2.25
Class 195/1 (3-car)	184	71 metres	2.59
Class 745 (Electric only)	704 (IC) 722 (StanEx)	237 metres	2.97 (IC) 3.05 (StanEx)
Class 755 (bimode, 4-car)	202	81 metres	2.49
theoretical 12-car bimode FLIRT with 2 powerpacks	704 (IC) 722 (StanEx)	250 metres	2.82 (IC) 2.89 (StanEx)

Clearly the 195s give you a somewhat larger number of seats per metre length, but the difference isn't that big, and the 4-car 755 has 2 toilets compared to 1 on the 195s, which explains part of the difference. The important question then becomes how much it matters, which depends on how limiting platform length is

Source for the numbers on the class 195: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-195/

I'm on a packed two-car 150 running into Manchester now.

Each middle seat of the three is empty, and the second of the two next to me is empty. The vestibules are packed, the gangway less so as it's so tight. Everyone's knees are interlocked.

3+2 is a total fugazi. Nobody uses the third seat. Make it more comfortable for those seated and stood by installing fewer seats! And two carriage units should be consigned to history in terms of new orders.

 

[td97]

3+2 is a total fugazi. Nobody uses the third seat.

The MP for Leeds West and Pudsey seems to have no issue with the 3rd seat

x.com

x.com

 

[Anonymous10]

The MP for Leeds West and Pudsey seems to have no issue with the 3rd seat

x.com

x.com

Worth remembering with photos like these they are so often staged.

 

[Nottingham59]

The MP for Leeds West and Pudsey seems to have no issue with the 3rd seat

Andy Burnham does though. He's only got one bum cheek on his end seat

 

[YorksLad12]

Andy Burnham does though. He's only got one bum cheek on his end seat

And Louise Haigh is twisted round. Burnham's left leg is probably halfway down the aisle, so he'll be the only one with leg room. 3+2 bay seating is just wrong, unless you're a child or have removable legs.

 

[GoneSouth]

The MP for Leeds West and Pudsey seems to have no issue with the 3rd seat

x.com

x.com

I bet they didn’t travel like that from York to Blackpool or from Wigan to Leeds stopping at every crumbling relic along the way, or anywhere come to think of it. I’m pretty sure Andy Burnham would like to see the back of these terrible old noise boxes but will the person on his right lend him a few quid to do it?. What a ridiculous staged photo. Would have been more believable of Mr Burnham had somebody else’s bum cheek in his face and they’d all had to ask the people opposite to move their filthy feet off the seats so they could sit down.

Why do they state nonsense in this in what is clearly an empty train going nowhere?

 

[I'm here now]

I bet they didn’t travel like that from York to Blackpool or from Wigan to Leeds stopping at every crumbling relic along the way, or anywhere come to think of it. I’m pretty sure Andy Burnham would like to see the back of these terrible old noise boxes but will the person on his right lend him a few quid to do it?. What a ridiculous staged photo. Would have been more believable of Mr Burnham had somebody else’s bum cheek in his face and they’d all had to ask the people opposite to move their filthy feet off the seats so they could sit down.

Why do they state nonsense in this in what is clearly an empty train going nowhere?

What’s the stock?

 

[800001]

Interesting news from Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe (main announcement was regarding the battery 802 results), but it included.



Doesn't mean they will get the Northern tender, but suggests discussions are fairly active regarding getting part of the tender

Hitachi sounds positive note about future of County Durham train factory

The manufacturer said talks with Government continue as it announced trials of a battery technology which it says can be retrofitted to diesel trains

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

But surely they still have to bid and tender for orders as they always have done? The government can not just give a contract to Hitachi can they?

The only thing they could do is authorise the option on the current Avanti order (unless the option has expired).

 

[GoneSouth]

What’s the stock?

I’d mistakenly thought it was a 150, but looking at the photos more closely it’s probably a 323. Not noisy boxes then and Northern are just in the process of acquiring a load more.

They may not be the noisy boxes, but anything with 3+2 is terrible for more than a few minutes. Blackpool to Manchester Airport anyone?

 

[Starmill]

I’d mistakenly thought it was a 150, but looking at the photos more closely it’s probably a 323. Not noisy boxes then and Northern are just in the process of acquiring a load more.

They may not be the noisy boxes, but anything with 3+2 is terrible for more than a few minutes. Blackpool to Manchester Airport anyone?

Do you mean a 769?

The government can not just give a contract to Hitachi can they?

No, but then again with Hendy on the scene who knows!

 

[GoneSouth]

Do you mean a 769?

oops