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Northern: The Great Unit Cascade

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darloscott

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I see from posts elsewhere on Facebook that ex-Scotrail 158870 is in the process of transferring to Barrow today in order to start crew training on 158s from Barrow prior to their introduction in May. It's worked from Leeds to York and back across to Preston this morning attached to other 158s. It'll then run ECS to Barrow later.

I thought we could use a new thread apart from the refurbishments for the cascade of units onto new pastures over the next few years as new units are introduced and the older units are cascaded onto different diagrams, into new areas and services are strengthened.
 
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stu99

stu99

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106
Location
Hexham
darloscott said:
I see from posts elsewhere on Facebook that ex-Scotrail 158870 is in the process of transferring to Barrow today in order to start crew training on 158s from Barrow prior to their introduction in May. It's worked from Leeds to York and back across to Preston this morning attached to other 158s. It'll then run ECS to Barrow later.

I thought we could use a new thread apart from the refurbishments for the cascade of units onto new pastures over the next few years as new units are introduced and the older units are cascaded onto different diagrams, into new areas and services are strengthened.
Click to expand...

Thought I would would post a list on what so far Northern have received...
GWR
150124 now in Northern Livery

150102 Now in Northern Livery Transferred 3rd December 2017
150122

150101 Transferred 3rd Feb NH
150123
150129

150108 Transferred 17th Feb
150120
150128

150104 Transferred 10th March
150106

150121 Transferred 17th March
150127

150130 Transferred 29th March
150131

153305 Transferred 14th May
153373
153380

ScotRail
158870 Transferred 4th Jan
158871

170459 transferred 01/08/18
170460
170461 Transferred /08/18
170472
170473 Transferred /08/18
170474
170475 Transferred 6th March
170476 now in Northern Livery, transferred 8th March
170477 Transferred 8th March
170478 Transferred 6th March
 
Last edited:
SteveyBee131

SteveyBee131

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Messages
651
Location
Grimsby Town
darloscott said:
I thought we could use a new thread apart from the refurbishments for the cascade of units onto new pastures over the next few years as new units are introduced and the older units are cascaded onto different diagrams, into new areas and services are strengthened.
Click to expand...

Very good idea :D
 
P

Parallel

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150101 and 150129 must have transferred very recently - I’ve been on them/seen them recently on the GWR network!
 
djpontrack

djpontrack

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1,016
Location
Morecambe
stu99 said:
Thought I would would post a list on what so far Northern have received...
150124 now in Northern Livery
150102 away for repair and modifications
150122
150101
150123
150129

158870
158871
Click to expand...

I need 150101 and 150124 for haulage so that's good that they are with Northern now.
 
C

coxxy

Member
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16 Aug 2013
Messages
300
Just been going through the Northern Franchise agreement to try and work out when units were/are apparently due to Northern so here goes..

1st June 2016 -
32(8x4 car) class 319
1st December 2016 -
16(4x4 car) class 319
1st September 2017 -
30 (15x 2 car) class 150's
1st January 2018 -
4 (2x 2 car) class 150's
1st July 2018 -
48 (16x 3 car) class 170's - NB I believe crew training has already begun with these hoping to start being cascaded for May timetable change.
1st January 2019 -
16 (8x 2 car) class 158's
10(5x2 car) class 156
1st April 2019 -
6 (3x 2car) class 150's
6 (2x 3 car) class 150's
January 2020 -
50(25x2) class 195
90(30x3) class 195
February 2020 -
93(31x3) class 331
48(12x4) class 331
1st December 2022 -
36(18x2 car) - unspecified but equivalent to 2 car class 170

In terms of stock going OFF Lease and returning to the ROSCOS the plans (from franchise agreement) are:

April 2017 -
1 x class 153
September 2018 -
10(5x2 car) class 144
October 2018 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
November 2018 -
8(4x2 car) class 144
10(5x2 car) class 142
21(7x3 car) class 323
December 2018 -
38(19x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 323
January 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
18(9x2 car) class 142
February 2019 -
20(10x2 car) class 142
Early March 2019 -
16(8x2 car) class 142
Late March 2019 -
2(1x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 144
April 2019 -
10(5x2 car) class 142
May 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 142
7 x class 153
June 2019 -
12(6x2 car) class 142
July 2019 -
8(4x2 car) class 142
8(2x4) class 321
August 2019 -
4(1x4) class 321
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
4(1x4 car) class 322
September 2019-
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
October 2019-
4(2x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
November 2019 -
4 X class 153


If I've made any mistakes then please feel free to flag it up. As I said this is going off the information in the franchise agreement.. things may have or may will change.. who knows
 
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Agent_Squash

Agent_Squash

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1,233
Now that WMT doesn't want the 323s, surely there's a chance that the agreement will be amended so the 323s stay instead of the 319s?
 
C

coxxy

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Messages
300
Agent_Squash said:
Now that WMT doesn't want the 323s, surely there's a chance that the agreement will be amended so the 323s stay instead of the 319s?
Click to expand...

Would definitely make sense.. I don't think northern are planning on losing any 323's any time soon anyway
 
gazthomas

gazthomas

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Location
St. Albans
darloscott said:
I see from posts elsewhere on Facebook that ex-Scotrail 158870 is in the process of transferring to Barrow today in order to start crew training on 158s from Barrow prior to their introduction in May. It's worked from Leeds to York and back across to Preston this morning attached to other 158s. It'll then run ECS to Barrow later.

I thought we could use a new thread apart from the refurbishments for the cascade of units onto new pastures over the next few years as new units are introduced and the older units are cascaded onto different diagrams, into new areas and services are strengthened.
Click to expand...
Forgive me, I’ve been on a Northern 158 to Barrow multiple times - what training is required?
 
Agent_Squash

Agent_Squash

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Messages
1,233
coxxy said:
Would definitely make sense.. I don't think northern are planning on losing any 323's any time soon anyway
Click to expand...

Indeed. The DfT don't want to be giving the impression that the North really is just getting London's castoffs...
 
C

coxxy

Member
Joined
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Messages
300
gazthomas said:
Forgive me, I’ve been on a Northern 158 to Barrow multiple times - what training is required?
Click to expand...

Not sure but would imagine the train crew depots up there aren't competent in 158's and it is to get guards and/or drivers trained on them.
 
S

Shaw S Hunter

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Joined
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Messages
2,947
Location
Sunny South Lancs
gazthomas said:
Forgive me, I’ve been on a Northern 158 to Barrow multiple times - what training is required?
Click to expand...

How recently was the last such occasion?

One of the reasons our railways are so safe is the strong aversion to risk. This is reflected in the rigourous system of competency management of safety critical staff including traincrew. Generally speaking if a member of traincrew has gone 6 months without working a specific type of traction they require a refresher before being able to work that traction type again. Less clear is how long a period may elapse with neither work nor refresher. However I would imagine that for Barrow crews at least any return to working class 158s would require complete retraining such is the time that has elapsed since they last had booked work on them.
 
Bevan Price

Bevan Price

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7,336
It must be at least 10 years since Class 158 worked to Barrow - when did TP start sending 185s to Barrow? Use of 158s ceased at about the same time.
 
L

LowLevel

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Messages
7,583
Using where I work as a rule of thumb... until 10 years ago the depot used to work class 150 and 170. Out of 100 ish guards now at least I would say 60% have never signed those classes. You can't just reintroduce things many years later.
 
F

fulmar

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Messages
82
gazthomas said:
Forgive me, I’ve been on a Northern 158 to Barrow multiple times - what training is required?
Click to expand...

The last time 158s ran to Barrow was about 2002 when the service was worked by First North Western. They were only used for a couple of years due to problems with the introduction of the 175s. Full training will be required for all Barrow crews due to the length of time since they last worked with 158s.
 
A

Adam0984

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Messages
1,077
Full training won't be needed for Barrow crews on 158s as it's just a conversation course from 156s
 
C

Class 170101

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Messages
7,932
coxxy said:
Just been going through the Northern Franchise agreement to try and work out when units were/are apparently due to Northern so here goes..

In terms of stock going OFF Lease and returning to the ROSCOS the plans (from franchise agreement) are:

April 2017 -
1 x class 153
September 2018 -
10(5x2 car) class 144
October 2018 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
November 2018 -
8(4x2 car) class 144
10(5x2 car) class 142
21(7x3 car) class 323
December 2018 -
38(19x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 323
January 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
18(9x2 car) class 142
February 2019 -
20(10x2 car) class 142
Early March 2019 -
16(8x2 car) class 142
Late March 2019 -
2(1x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 144
April 2019 -
10(5x2 car) class 142
May 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 142
7 x class 153
June 2019 -
12(6x2 car) class 142
July 2019 -
8(4x2 car) class 142
8(2x4) class 321
August 2019 -
4(1x4) class 321
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
4(1x4 car) class 322
September 2019-
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
October 2019-
4(2x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
November 2019 -
4 X class 153


If I've made any mistakes then please feel free to flag it up. As I said this is going off the information in the franchise agreement.. things may have or may will change.. who knows
Click to expand...

I can't see any of the units in 2018 going anywhere especially the DMUs as Northern don't have enough trains to run services right now
 
C

coxxy

Member
Joined
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Messages
300
Class 170101 said:
I can't see any of the units in 2018 going anywhere especially the DMUs as Northern don't have enough trains to run services right now
Click to expand...

Believe me I highly doubt that as well.. Will certainly be interesting to see what happens come May timetable change.. I know it won't be anywhere near as big as originally planned but at the minute they are robbing Peter to pay Paul daily. Any service increase is go in to hurt them.
 
1

1179_Clee2

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2016
Messages
283
Location
North East Lincolnshire
stu99 said:
Thought I would would post a list on what so far Northern have received...
GWR
150124 now in Northern Livery

150102 away for repair and modifications, Transferred 3rd December 2017
150122

150101 Transferred 3rd Feb
150123
150129

150108 Transferred 17th Feb
150120
150128

ScotRail
158870 Transferred 4th Jan
158871
Click to expand...
170 475, 476, 477 and 478 have arrived in Leeds from Scotrail
 
G

Geeves

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Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
1,928
Location
Rochdale
I suppose one plus with the 142s and 144s is that no one is waiting for them. The delays can only really be a bonus to leasing company as the only place they are going is the scrap yard. The usual thing is some TOC gets screwed.

170s taking over from 142s is one hell of a change!
 
C

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
Geeves said:
I suppose one plus with the 142s and 144s is that no one is waiting for them. The delays can only really be a bonus to leasing company as the only place they are going is the scrap yard. The usual thing is some TOC gets screwed.

170s taking over from 142s is one hell of a change!
Click to expand...

I am sticking with my guess that the 144s will go to the next W&B ToC, they will need to send a huge number of 150s away for PRM-TSI upgrade and have all of them done within 14 months of taking over. Don't forget that 15 DMUs have already arrived, Manchester to Preston wiring will free up aproximately 16 DMUs and 195s should enter service in December. Further units will be cascaded over the next 9 months and the 769s may arrive too. Its entirely possible that the Northern cascades will be back on schedule in December.
 
N

notlob.divad

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19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
I think you may be right, as even if WA went for a full replacement fleet I don't see how they would possibly arrive in time.

However Northern have their own issues with PRM mods. Looking at the list on the refurbishment thread, there are still an awful lot that have not been away for the required modifications.
 
G

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
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Messages
3,234
coxxy said:
Just been going through the Northern Franchise agreement to try and work out when units were/are apparently due to Northern so here goes..

1st June 2016 -
32(8x4 car) class 319
1st December 2016 -
16(4x4 car) class 319
1st September 2017 -
30 (15x 2 car) class 150's
1st January 2018 -
4 (2x 2 car) class 150's
1st July 2018 -
48 (16x 3 car) class 170's - NB I believe crew training has already begun with these hoping to start being cascaded for May timetable change.
1st January 2019 -
16 (8x 2 car) class 158's
10(5x2 car) class 156
1st April 2019 -
6 (3x 2car) class 150's
6 (2x 3 car) class 150's
January 2020 -
50(25x2) class 195
90(30x3) class 195
February 2020 -
93(31x3) class 331
48(12x4) class 331
1st December 2022 -
36(18x2 car) - unspecified but equivalent to 2 car class 170

In terms of stock going OFF Lease and returning to the ROSCOS the plans (from franchise agreement) are:

April 2017 -
1 x class 153
September 2018 -
10(5x2 car) class 144
October 2018 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
November 2018 -
8(4x2 car) class 144
10(5x2 car) class 142
21(7x3 car) class 323
December 2018 -
38(19x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 323
January 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 144
18(9x2 car) class 142
February 2019 -
20(10x2 car) class 142
Early March 2019 -
16(8x2 car) class 142
Late March 2019 -
2(1x2 car) class 142
30(10x3 car) class 144
April 2019 -
10(5x2 car) class 142
May 2019 -
4(2x2 car) class 142
7 x class 153
June 2019 -
12(6x2 car) class 142
July 2019 -
8(4x2 car) class 142
8(2x4) class 321
August 2019 -
4(1x4) class 321
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
4(1x4 car) class 322
September 2019-
8(4x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
October 2019-
4(2x2 car) class 142
2 x class 153
8(2x4 car) class 322
November 2019 -
4 X class 153


If I've made any mistakes then please feel free to flag it up. As I said this is going off the information in the franchise agreement.. things may have or may will change.. who knows
Click to expand...

A helpful list. Did a 153 actually leave in April 2017 and, if so, where to? I assume London Midland/West Midlands Trains for the new Kenilworth service (not yet started!)
 
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